Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthorjemhayward
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008
     
    I am considering using hemcrete as the internal insulation on a C17 barn being converted. The original walls are 500mm ironstone and rubble, and probably about as airtight as a sieve. I've looked at everything from Vacuum Panels to Warmcell and Celotex, but limiting myself to affordable solutions, hemcrete seems to offer me some distinct advantages for about £35/m2 @ 200mm.
    1. it has some thermal mass, so the building will "work" much like the original high-mass construction regulating temperatures.
    2. it will provide a degree of air-tightness that would otherwise have to be created by using a separate process.
    3. 200mm will give me a decent level of insulation.
    4. fewer materials / stages required making the process less labour intensive and skill based.
    5. it will be less affected by damp penetration than dry lining.
    6. it will give a more sympathetic wall finish than flat boards.

    However, there are a few un-answered questions:
    1. will 200mm of hemcrete stuck to the upstairs walls represent a floor loading that will need to be taken into account?
    2. how easy is it for semi-skilled labour to apply?
    3. anything I've not thought of?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008
     
    I shall follow this one with great interest. Where do you live? Are you in touch with the manufs or a genned-up local supplier or applicator? That wd be essential - there's a great deal of tech and practical info available, which needs to be understood. It does seem to be a bit of a wonder-material.

    i agree with advantages 1-6 - but do you need as much as 200mm? You'll be getting thermal-mass-based performance out of your walls, so need not rely on pure U-value. However, to make the thermal mass available, you'll need to make you rubble walls as airtight as possible from the outside, by top-class conservation-grade repointing - otherwise all heat in the wall will disappear with the wind as it blows through.

    Questions 1-3: why should hemcrete stuck to the walls create a floor loading? It's best spray-applied by specialist contractors - how else would you do it? The manufs/suppliers have that all down pat - economic if you get everything ready and let them do it all in one go.

    Sounds superb!
    • CommentAuthorjemhayward
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008
     
    I've had some brief email discussions with manufacturer. It would seem that for my total wall area spraying is uneconomic as set up costs are quite high, also, as we're converting in stages, as part of the building is my office, we need to do it in stages. Casting in situ seems to be the way to go, and we may even try DIY, as it seems quite easy. My preferred builder has extensive experience in conservation projects (incl my 500yr old main house) and is familiar with lime - even makes his own lime plasters! He's keen to repoint the outside, as its quite poor in places, but we will probably leave that to the end of the project.
    200mm is going to give me a u-value of about 0.28 which fits in with my whole building target, as I may need to "trade" relatively poor performance on the ground floor concrete slab, as we don't want to dig it up, and ceiling hts are marginal. We're in North Oxfordshire - I've not yet looked for suppliers, we're just at the specification stage, and at present have no funds available to proceed anyway.:cry:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: jemhaywardrelatively poor performance on the ground floor concrete slab
    Sounds ideal for AGS - see http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&page=2#Item_14 and www.greenershelter.org/TokyoPaper.pdf
    • CommentAuthorjemhayward
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008
     
    I was looking at earth sheltered self build a few years ago, but local planning people put every known obstacle in the way, making it essentially impossible to build, and land here is very scarce and expensive - so I went for re-cycled housing instead. AGS has its appeals but the costs of going down below ground here are very high, I looked at ground source heat pumps, but couldn't make the maths work. We have ironstone, clay and radon to deal with. I may use AGS principles as an excuse for poor insulation on the floor - some compromise id due somewhere - at present the listed building people won't even let us put solar water heating on our ideal south facing roof.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008
     
    Are you saying rock close below the surface? Don't give up too soon - every site a new challenge, there's always ways, not obvious at first.
    • CommentAuthorjemhayward
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2008
     
    Its difficult to find out as we can't dig near to the building, its all concreted over access, but judging by the garden nearby, and local knowledge, its pretty rocky down there - vast tracts of the village were quarried for ironstone until quite recently. The company quoting for a borehole seemed quite keen to dissuade me from going down, though theres plenty of underground water as every house in the street has a well, though all disused... so its not an impossible idea, just maybe an expensive one. At this stage I'm not ruling anything out. Overall heating strategy is wood pellet stove as we need to heat barn, main house and hot water.
  1.  
    RE hemcrete

    WE are pursuing hemcrete as the insulation to our barn conversion. It seems nobody has used it in a domestic setting, even though the Uvalues are ok - and it is breathable and natural - for us it seems the ideal option, it also protects the main structure of the building because it keeps the walls breathable. The spraying is expensive and you have to use the contractors to do it because of the kit they use. Shuttering you can do yourself but the end result is not as aesthetically pleasing, and is a faff. We would love to find someone that has actually used hemcrete and managed to get it through building regs. Maybe we'll be the first? HELP!!!
    We don't want to seal our lovely stone walls with plastic and phelylylonicformeldahyde killer foam!
  2.  
    I wonder why it is not possible to just render with hempcrete by hand in the same way as conventional renders? Or is it?

    I have used many different render materials over the years but not hempcrete - I'd like to know more - Anyone know where there is a technical data sheet online?
    • CommentAuthorwalrus
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008
     
    Thinking aloud (?on the net?) is it not possible to put shuttering up a short distance away from the inside wall and do a pour in the usual way using the wall as the outer shuttering? Extending that a bit, use ply as your inner shutter, then double skin with 'drywall' (gyproc or what ever board your favourite ecofriendly might be)? Point the outer wall and your 'Planners' would never know! Naughty naughty! OK so go tell me to go boil my head, I don't know what I'm talking about, but hey it's a thought and somebody else may have thought of it (done it?).
    • CommentAuthorjamesh
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2008
     
  3.  
    Mike, I believe the Hempcrete is a hemp lime mix (also contains some cement) which is heavy on the hemp and used for thick applications either between shuttering and tamped or spray applied. I had a go at filling shuttering with a hemp lime mix a couple of weeks ago and I can best describe it as like oats mixed with a bit of watered down yogurt, no way you could trowel it on. It needs finishing with a lime render. Also tried out this product:-

    http://www.hempirebuilding.co.uk/ecoplaster.html

    This is ready mixed lime plaster with hemp added which gives it some insulation value, stops it cracking and generally makes it much more reliable to work with. Ideal for finishing a hemp lime wall or plastering onto stone walls. Good stuff but expensive.
  4.  
    Thanks both
    •  
      CommentAuthorecoworrier
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2008
     
    Got this through the other day from Lime technology
    "Tradical® Hemcrete® has been awarded LABC System Approval which means that it is now possible to receive Local Authority building control approval for the walls of building projects using Tradical® Hemcrete® in all 376 local authority areas in the UK."
    • CommentAuthortbhulse
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2008
     
    Am currently tryong to get my BCO to approve my use of hemcrete in my barn conversion but he hasn't said yes yet in spite of talking to the BCO who approved the LABC and to Lime Technology - the supplier. Lime Technology did some calcs and tells me 150mm is sufficient for a U value of .35 with 600mm rubble filled walls. Anyone else got this approved yet?

    The BCO is doing his best to stop me using a limecrete floor as well - if he wins this battle, as he appears to be at the moment, is there any point in me still using hemcrete for the walls?
  5.  
    What is the problem with the floor? You absolutely do not want to use concrete with a damp proof membrane for the floor with rubble stone walls. Moisture trapped under the floor by the membrane will migrate toward the edges and into the bottom of the wall potentially causing rising damp and you can't successfully inject a damp proof course into a rubble stone wall.

    Your BCO will no doubt get around this problem by suggesting you build an insulated inner skin with a gap between it and the stone wall. This approach is all wrong (if you wanted to live a plasterboard box you wouldn't be converting a barn) and I'd stick to my guns if I were you. They can't dictate to you how you do things, only that you comply with the regulations. Try ringing the local conservation officer and tell him or her what you are being advised to do. Maybe they could have a word with the BCO.
    • CommentAuthortbhulse
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2008
     
    He says he want to see something like an LABC certificate for the limecrete method before approving it - which doesn't appear to exist. Ty Mawr have mailed him all the information they have but he says it's not enough.

    Re: the walls, the architects preferred method is metal studs (cold bridging?) with Kingspan.

    I'm happy to try sticking to my guns, but how do you prove you are meeting the regulation?

    I thought my solution with a breathable floor and breathable, airtight walls ticks all the boxes. If the floor were concrete, I'm not sure the homgeneous hemcrete wall is going to work becaus as you said, any underfloor moisture is going to head straight for it.
  6.  
    Ask he what regulations exacting you're in breach of by using a limecrete floor and get him to give you copies of the specific paragraphs.
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    tbhulse if the bco wont approve the spec then use another bco. you are not tied to using the local authority building control so move on to a supportive bco elsewehere or that operates privately
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    Ian Pritchett MD Lime Technology Ltd asked me to post this response to the thread on his behalf : ian.pritchett@limetechnology.co.uk

    " Hemcrete(r) can be used to line the inside of thick stone walls and can be used as thin as 150mm to meet part L. However it may be that thinner layers will still give you the required levels of thermal performance and comfort because not everything is about U-values.
    I suggest you contact Lime Technology for information and request details of training seminars (0845 603 1143).
    To answer the various questions above:-
    When the wall is cast (easy/cheaper for smaller jobs) then the upper floor will need to support the upper Hemcrete(r) wall. Hemcrete(r) is very easy to use.

    Hemcrete(r) cannot be applied like plaster, although it is possible to buy hemp-lime plasters which can be trowelled on. These can be used where only a thin layer is possible/required (up to 75mm)."
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    theres an labc certificate and plenty of other spec documents on the lime technology website. http://www.limetechnology.co.uk
    • CommentAuthortbhulse
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    Ali, didn't realise you could do that! That's certainly worth knowing!

    I have already been in touch with Ian, he put me in touch with Louise McCann who has provided a fair bit of material re: Hemcrete whcih I have passed on to the BCO. Still waiting for a final answer on that. Louise suggesteted that 150mm could give a u value of 0.35 with my 600mm rubble filled walls. I was trying to get to their seminar tomorrow but it's full - am now planning to go to the one on June 25th in Abingdon. They can't help with Limecrete (or Hemcrete) floors though (yet).
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    Glad someone's doing this homework - thanks - will need it myself sooner or later.
    • CommentAuthortbhulse
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    If I left it to the architect it would be Kingspan all the way! And a nice dry concrete floor! Not! Will post my thoughts after the seminar.
  7.  
    I'm hoping to go to the seminar on the 25th too. My "Damp Man" has visited and has declared my rising damp as "minor" and feels tham the hemcrete lining I propose to use will be the best possible solution. I was looking at using 200mm but may trim that to 150mm as I'm slowly getting my head around the concept of dynamic u-values, so I reckon 150mm will get me part L compliance, and it will work rather better than 0.35 would suggest - add in my 0.18 roof insulation, and I'm getting close to a practical ideal.
    • CommentAuthortbhulse
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2008
     
    See you there then Jem. FYI, just fired my BCO and hired Butler & Young - who a) have heard of lime, b) have heard of limecrete c) return phone calls and d) are prepared to discuss things like Hemcrete. May get the go ahead eventually after all.
  8.  
    Hey! Good for you!
    • CommentAuthortimmy
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008
     
    St Astier have been working with hemp longer than almost anyone - seen their site -

    http://www.stastier.co.uk/hemp-construction.htm
    • CommentAuthortimmy
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008
     
    I notice that Hempire states - ' can be applied to walls that are still damp' - I would suggest that anyone that does this is asking for trouble . Hemp MUST go onto walls where on-going dampness issues have been resolved. All the binders have a proportion of cement in them - they wont set in these sorts of thickness without them. Pozzolan is a coy way of saying cement in this instance - lets not be afraid of saying the word!
  9.  
    Just wondering how tbhulse is getting on with the hemcrete and the building regs.
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press