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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorjamesw
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    I can find very little on the forum about heat mirror glazing. As one supplier explains it, "Heat Mirror is a film suspended inside double insulating glass. It is a three layer system with two independent air spaces, but has the advantage of weighing the same as a double glazing unit. "

    So it's like triple glazing, but the middle pane is made not of glass but of a film. Allegedly U values are as good as or better than triple glazing - see http://www.albo.co.uk/what-is-heat-mirror.htm. The advantage for me would be that's it lighter, which is why my architect has suggested it since we're considering large expanses of glass in a roof structure.

    Does anyone have experience of this? I can envisage various potential problems. Even if it looks OK to begin with, it would be no good if the suspended film started to sag after a few years.

    All I've found here is from three years ago, when mbartosik wrote at http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=527&page=4:

    "For anyone reading from elsewhere [than the US], try looking for windows with "Heat Mirror" films. Adding a 3rd layer of glass makes the window heavier which is not typically an issue unless you want impact resistance or lamination for sound deadening. The Heat Mirror films are very light weight and come in various formulations and single and double coated. Alpen make windows with up to 3 films (4 gas spaces) and up to double coated. The more films and coatings the more the tinting effect, so it is important to see an example. I'm ordering mostly with two single sided films (some with two double sided films). The center of glass R value is about 9.5 (US units) for two single sided films"
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    The parent company details can be found here http://www.albo.cz/english/contacts-dealer-uk/

    Looks good?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    • CommentAuthorjamesw
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    Joiner, I'm sure it's just me being slow, but I don't understand what you're pointing me towards.

    Your link is to the (currently) final page of a 322-post thread about heated windows. It may be that there is something of relevance in the discussion of the way that U values are measured, but you'll have to forgive me for not understanding the connection.
  1.  
    Try this link: http://www.southwall.com/southwall/Home/Commercial/Products/HeatMirrorInsulatingGlass.html - basically it's a low emissivity film, sort of like triple glazing but without the inner pane glass, just the coating that would be on the glass.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    Paul- they're talking U-values as well as R-values - would that be the same metric centre-pane U-values we're familiar with in Europe? just that he numbers don't sound that impressive.
  2.  
    Looks like they are using Imperial U/R values, not RSI. 2.81 is the conversion factor if I recall correctly (either multiplied or divided depending which way you're going). R20 is equivalent to RSI 7.11 which is U=0.14

    [ edit - I screwed up the conversion from R to RSI. Multiply/divide by 5.678. So R20 is RSI3.5 is U=0.28 - sorry for the confusion! ]

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    James, sorry, a complication came into the "debate" because at various points THREE systems were being discussed at once, including the heat-mirror system. It did eventually settle down, but a lot of circles were gone around.

    Paul's link above is one of those in the earlier thread.

    Carry on. :wink: :bigsmile:

    Apologies.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    Heat Mirror is a well-established product, and notably recommended by Amory Lovins.

    Paul, I don't know which numbers you're looking at but U=0.14 seems fairly remarkable. As far as I know, a glass-HM-glass triple-glazed unit has a similar U-value to an all glass unit. But it's lighter. But they do make units with multiple interior HM layers, so maybe they can get to 0.14. If so, I would check the percentage of visible light transmitted & g-value as well as the U-value.
  3.  
    Posted By: djhPaul, I don't know which numbers you're looking at but U=0.14 seems fairly remarkable.


    Indeed! This was for a four-cavity xenon-fill unit.

    From the link:

    "Tri-Film/Quad-Cavity

    Heat Mirror Insulating Glass using three Heat Mirror films suspended inside of an insulating glass unit, creating four air spaces, is the most energy-efficient glazing product in the world. With an optional Xenon gass filling, tri-film/quad-cavity Heat Mirror Insulating Glass can achieve an industry-leading U-value of 0.05 (R-value of 20)."

    Seems I screwed up my conversion factors!! 5.678 is used to go from R to RSI. So R20 is U=0.28

    Probably pretty dark! They claim to have 12 different films (each with different light/IR transmittance values). I think the winning feature is that you can get 3g performance in a unit with the same weight a as a 2g unit.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    Posted By: Paul in Montrealan industry-leading U-value of 0.05 (R-value of 20)."

    Seems I screwed up my conversion factors!! 5.678 is used to go from R to RSI. So R20 is U=0.28
    Still not clear? Is R20 = U 0.05, or U 0.28? Depends what units these U values are in?
  4.  
    Posted By: fostertomStill not clear? Is R20 = U 0.05, or U 0.28? Depends what units these U values are in?


    It's a US site so the values are Imperial. R is still 1/U in both Imperial and metric. 0.05*5.678 is 0.28

    Paul in Montreal.
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