Politics: EU:- in or out?

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- CommentAuthorMike1
- CommentTimeJun 1st 2016
Posted By: vordAre there any equivalent pro EU websites someone could link which avoid the mainstream politics lies and call Cameron a moron? That could help at least working out a balanced view with the stuff the reasonable folk on the other side forget to mention.

You could try the Centre for European Reform "pro-European but not uncritical" - they have a number of referendum-related articles at https://www.cer.org.uk/hot-topics/britain-eu
- CommentAuthorPile-o-Stone
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
What I found that was telling in the whole EU debate was the Remain campaign announcing that House prices would fall if we left the EU. Apart from the chattering classes in their million pound mansions in Surrey, surely that is a good thing for virtually everyone else? Obviously the Tories are always going to appeal to middle England for everything they do, but I find it quite depressing how far Labour seems to be moving from its grass roots of workign people towards the Tory heartlands. I guess when you have the likes of 'two kitchens' milliband (and the Tory Tony Blair) in charge, and the move towards career politicians who go straight from their degrees into politics (never to live in the real world), you can understand how the interests of ordinary people get sidelined.

The Remain campaign didn't explain why they thought that house prices would fall (do they ever back up their outlandish claims?) but I assume it's because we would have less pressure on houses (and schools, hospitals, doctor's surgeries, transport links, et al) if net migration falls to more manageable levels. Is that such a bad thing? Lower house prices have so many positive affects on people's lives that it's almost a Brexit vote winner on its own.

"Vote brexit and you can have a secure, affordable home with a bit of money left over each month to have holidays and day trips with the kids. Spend less time at work chasing overtime to cover your bills, spend more time at home with your family".

The Remain campaign paint a fine picture of life outside the EU.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
I thought it was more to do with a lower GDP (or income in layman terms) and higher interest rates (to attract investment).

You can pick just about any topic and say it will decrease house values.
- CommentAuthorCerisy
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Strange line that Remaint are taking - house prices will fall - when there is a likelihood of many expats coming back to the UK and needing accommodation. Surely that will push house prices up?
- CommentAuthorowlman
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
It's all designed to scare and detract;- economic collapse, pension misery, house prices, war, famine, pestilence.

The real issue is, who is making the rules, from where I'm standing it's an unelected elite in Brussels.

I find it very strange that most UK politicians, when questioned would agree that our UK second chamber needs reform to make it more accountable to the public. Yet many of those same politicians are quite happy to hand over large areas of responsibility to an unelected EU bureaucrats.
With greater EU expansion, staying, and trying to change things from within becomes an ever more distant possibility. Even the UK "remainers" I think , would like to see the EU as a more accountable and responsive organisation.
Many, maybe even the majority of EU nations, are there from a very different, turbulent, quite recent past, than the UK.
They see the EU as a safeguard against their country slipping back, or being swallowed up again, into some nasty dictatorship. Instead they opt for a sort of bureaucratic dictatorship where much power is taken away from their own politicians. All that and cash too.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: owlmanThe real issue is, who is making the rules, from where I'm standing it's an unelected elite in Brussels.
The whole way in which EU law is made is a bit alien to those brought up on the Westminster model but is actually pretty close in practice, I think. AIUI, there are all sorts of rules about who gets to propose what legislation but in practice when it gets drafted it's done by the Commission (in the same way that it's done by civil servants in Britain), then voted on by the Parliament (as in Britain) then approved by the Council of the EU (as it is by the Lords in Britain, except that the Council members are mostly elected [Â¹] being the relevant government ministers from the constituent countries). Very little gets done directly by people without faces [Â²].

[Â¹] In Britain some ministers are not elected MPs but rather members of the House of Lords. E.g., I think the Attorney General (who's considered to be of ministerial rank but not typically a cabinet minister) often is and sometimes others. Whatever, the ministers are directly answerable to Parliament.

[Â²] How do these â€œfacelessâ€ bureaucrats breath? Do they have blow holes on the backs of their heads like whales?

They see the EU as a safeguard against their country slipping back, or being swallowed up again, into some nasty dictatorship.
I see the EU as, at least partially, a safeguard against this country slipping into some nasty dictatorship.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: Ed Daviesit's done by the Commission (in the same way that it's done by civil servants in Britain)

The Commissioners are the executive who originate the law not just the civil service who implement it. They are not politically neutral.

I see the EU as, at least partially, a safeguard against this country slipping into some nasty dictatorship.

I don't think there's any chance at all of that happening in this country. So we don't need external training wheels, we already know how to ride that particular bike.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
Posted By: Ed Davies(in the same way that it's done by civil servants in Britain)
That is the way I understand it as well.
Posted By: djhThe Commissioners are the executive who originate the law not just the civil service who implement it. They are not politically neutral.
They do divert a bit there, but then we have unelected Judges that can interpret the law in different ways, not to mention the CPS that choose not to prosecute in some cases. Then we have Judicial Review.

Posted By: djhI don't think there's any chance at all of that happening in this country.
They said that about Venezuela. We are only 3 days away from a riot.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: djhThe Commissioners are the executive who originate the law not just the civil service who implement it.
Yes, the commissioners are a lot more powerful than the civil service (or, at least, than the civil service are supposed to be) - almost as if the cabinet was made up of departmental permanent secretaries or something. However, my point is that it's the Commission who draft the law but the Parliament and Council who get to approve it or otherwise so, ultimately, it's not an â€œunelected eliteâ€ who make the rules, contrary to the view from wherever Owlman's standing.
- CommentAuthorMike1
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: owlmanThe real issue is, who is making the rules, from where I'm standing it's an unelected elite in Brussels.

It's elected MEPs (in the European Parliament) and the Council of the European Union (government ministers from the member states) who make the rules, not unelected bureaucrats: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00004/Legislative-powers
The European Commission (one member appointed by each national government, but approved as a body by the European Parliament, which can also force it to resign, and which also elects it's president) acts as the executive, proposing legislation (after considerably more consultation than standard UK procedures) and overseeing implementation if/when passed: http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

That may not be perfect democracy, and it doesn't help that turnouts for the European Elections are low, nor that the vote reflects the popularity the the incumbent UK government, rather than on European issues (little wonder, since the UK press provides such dire coverage).

On the other hand the UK system is no perfect democracy either - where it's normal for a majority government to push most of it's proposals into legislation, despite not representing a majority of the electorate, or even those that voted (the current Government won only 37% of the vote and only represents 24% of the electorate: https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/file/1767/download?token=cY4ruQ3t Not to mention UKIP winning only 1 seat despite having 12.6% of the vote)

In contrast the EU system is based on compromise - with around 50% of all European Parliament amendments becoming law - and results in legislation spanning the middle ground of politics: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-parliament/ Though of course that may not please those towards the left or right edges.
- CommentAuthorMike1
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
Posted By: owlmanMany, maybe even the majority of EU nations, are there from a very different, turbulent, quite recent past, than the UK. They see the EU as a safeguard against their country slipping back, or being swallowed up again, into some nasty dictatorship.

Indeed - Portugal, Spain and Greece were dictatorships, and Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania & Croatia were all under communism, not to mention the origins of the EU following WWII. Despite current problems the EU has an ongoing role in promoting democracy and stability in Europe, and that's in our national interest too.
- CommentAuthorowlman
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
It's not a transparent process Ed, its policies are made by wheeler dealing behind closed doors.
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
So unlike Westminster, Washington or any other part of the Free World - only in Brussels.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Some EU countries have compulsory voting (or used to) but we don't. Is that also for MEP voting?
If that is the case, and very few UK residence vote for MEPs, we can't really complain that the system is unfair.

If UKIP get 1/8th of the votes, does that give us any indication as to how popular the idea of leaving the EU is, not that it was a major issue in the General Election.
- CommentAuthorMike1
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: owlmanIt's not a transparent process Ed, its policies are made by wheeler dealing behind closed doors.

All proposals are debated and voted on by the European Parliament, and they're all published for public consultation too: http://ec.europa.eu/yourvoice/consultations/index_en.htm
- CommentAuthorMike1
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: SteamyTeaSome EU countries have compulsory voting (or used to) but we don't. Is that also for MEP voting?
Yes, voting in the last EU elections was compulsory in Greece, Belgium, Luxembourg & Cyprus.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
Posted By: djhI don't think there's any chance at all of that happening in this country.
So, who's having concerns about the ECtHR? Putin? May?
- CommentAuthorowlman
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: fostertomSo unlike Westminster, Washington or any other part of the Free World - only in Brussels.

Yes, perhaps, but with greater scrutiny in both your examples.
Given MarkyP's scenario that a Brexit could trigger massive peaceful change in the organisation, into something more democratic. I'd have thought you were firmly in favour of such a "Grand Correction".
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: owlmanYes, perhaps, but with greater scrutiny in both your examples.
The scrutiny comes from the outside, mostly because Westminster, Washington, etc, are likely to get up to really nasty things if left unsupervised whereas Brussels just introduces cookie laws and other inanities.
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Nation states have absolutely run their course - the future is both global and local - cross-border interdependent functional linkage accompanied by max Subsidiarity.

Nation states have lost two thirds of their effective sovreignty, can nowadays only do a ding-dong of ideological and/or exploitative tricks on their surveiled 'constituency'.
Fertile ground for nation-scale petty warlordism - our greatest danger today, filling the void left when a once-pioneering socio-economic miracle runs out of steam and momentum.

The English Empire aka UK was justified as a proto-EU but now needs to re-dissolve (like Belgium) into natural devolved units within a 21C-scaled EU, which has Subsidiarity as one of its founding principles and enablers.

The pseudo-national EU will in turn evolve into something much bigger and as yet undefinable.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: Mike1
Posted By: owlmanIt's not a transparent process Ed, its policies are made by wheeler dealing behind closed doors.

All proposals are debated and voted on by the European Parliament, and they're all published for public consultation too: http://ec.europa.eu/yourvoice/consultations/index_en.htm
But the deals are all struck behind closed doors. Many of the top level meetings are closed private meetings with no record available.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Posted By: Ed Davies
Posted By: djhI don't think there's any chance at all of that happening in this country.
So, who's having concerns about the ECtHR? Putin? May?

Sorry, don't understand your comment, Ed.
- CommentAuthorgyrogear
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
Posted By: Ed Davieswhen it gets drafted it's done by the Commission (in the same way that it's done by civil servants in Britain),

Maybe, but when was the last time that HM's entire Civil Service had to resign due to corruption ?
(to my knowledge, never...)
(for the Commission, it was in March 1999...)

(The president at the time was Jaques Santer (of Lux), the vice-president a certain Leon Brittan, and the Transport Coinmissioner, a certain Neil Kinnock...)

gg
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
Yawn ... if only this on GBF could be conducted without using any of the media trigger words - bureaucrat, uinelected, closed doors etc. There must be more original ways of saying it.
- CommentAuthorCWatters
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016
What I found that was telling in the whole EU debate was the Remain campaign announcing that House prices would fall if we left the EU. Apart from the chattering classes in their million pound mansions in Surrey, surely that is a good thing for virtually everyone else?

So you think someone in a Â£150,000 semi with a 90% mortgage will be fine? Ever heard of negative equity? Nothing worse than finding yourself with interest rates you can't afford, falling house prices and a house you can sell.

Fewer houses will also be built as happened during the price crash of 2008/9.
- CommentAuthorMike1
- CommentTimeJun 2nd 2016 edited
Posted By: borpinBut the deals are all struck behind closed doors. Many of the top level meetings are closed private meetings with no record available.

Not quite - you can watch parliament and committee meetings on TV (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/schedule); the Commission publish the agenda and minutes of their meetings (http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/index.cfm?fuseaction=gridyear) - 30 years faster than you can read minutes of UK cabinet meetings; the ECB publish details of the monetary policy meetings (https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/accounts/2016/html/index.en.html), etc.

And if you can't get what you want through other means, you can appeal to the European Ombudsman (http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/home.faces) - which is why some of the TTIP documents have now been published.

That's not to say that there isn't lobbying going on behind closed doors - as happens in the UK - but at least the current voluntary register of lobbyists is being made compulsory from 2017 (http://www.euractiv.com/section/public-affairs/news/eu-lobbyist-register-to-become-mandatory-by-2017/)
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeJun 3rd 2016
Posted By: gyrogearMaybe, but when was the last time that HM's entire Civil Service had to resign to corruption ?
The analogy between a particular group of Commissioners and the whole Civil Service is obviously silly. I don't know what happened in 1999 but the Commission is approved as a whole by the Parliament so it wouldn't surprise me if it needed to resign as a whole.

But the basic point is that they're only the people who draft the legislation. It's the people who say yay or nay to it becoming law which matter.

And we've never had any corruption with those in the UK, have we? Cash for questions, MP's expenses and now, it seems, Tory election expenses.
- CommentAuthormarktime
- CommentTimeJun 3rd 2016 edited
Posted By: fostertomYawn ... if only this on GBF could be conducted without using any of the media trigger words - bureaucrat, uinelected, closed doors etc. There must be more original ways of saying it.

What I see is that most of this debate here is coming from ignorance, except for the few notable exceptions. That ignorance is in no small way due to the lack of media attention that EU affairs command in the UK press.

I'll wager that hardly any of the contributors to this debate can name their MEPs and the fact that most of them are UKIP says a lot about voter turnout. Who for instance can name the association with the hard right that the Tory group maintain or say what form the Green coalition takes?

The words Tom has called triggers really are dogwhistles to coin a useful metaphor and it's much more informative to visit the links that Mike1 provides so that not only can you disabuse yourselves of some of the propaganda but you could help others make an informed choice.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeJun 3rd 2016 edited
Posted By: djh
Posted By: Ed DaviesSo, who's having concerns about the ECtHR? Putin? May?
Sorry, don't understand your comment, Ed.
Russia seems to be able to runs its official policies in compliance with the ECHR and with ECtHR rulings - it's the UK which wants to act in non-compliant ways. Admittedly, there's likely a bigger discrepancy between official and actual policy in Russia.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJun 3rd 2016
My MEPs
Molly Scott Cato (Green)
Clare Moody (Labour)
Julie Girling (Conservative)
Ashley Fox (Conservative)
Julia Reid (UKIP)
William (The Earl of) Dartmouth (UKIP)

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Politics: EU:- in or out?