Green Building Forum - ibuttons or something else? Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:07:48 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302399#Comment_302399 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302399#Comment_302399 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 11:46:59 +0100 RobinB
We're retrofitting a stone end of terrace. It has 100-150mm cavities and there are currently equal views that CWI would be either "a terrible thing, making everything damp" or "by far the best solution" to wall insulation. Inside the house is a wealth of architectural features dado, covings, skirtings that would not make IWI an easy job - plus concerns about cold bridging where the internal walls meet the inner leaf of external walls. EWI not an option due to conservation area.

One thought that appeals to me is to install CWI that could be removed relatively easily if all goes pear shaped. I'd like to be able to monitor temp and humidity within the cavity and I'm thinking ibuttons would be the thing? I'm a bit vague as to what they can do, how long they'll last or how they report. Any info or links appreaciated.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302400#Comment_302400 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302400#Comment_302400 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 11:57:18 +0100 fostertom ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302401#Comment_302401 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302401#Comment_302401 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 13:06:23 +0100 RobinB ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302403#Comment_302403 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302403#Comment_302403 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 15:52:59 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Most older buildings were not designed to be heated (in the way we understand it), that idea of heating all the rooms all the time didn't come in until relatively recently.

Wufi is great but you do need to know a) how much horizontal rain hits the wall and b) how much soaks in, vs running straight off. If you use the software default values
for these you can scare yourself unnecessarily, many walls have been inadequately IWI'd because of one such exercise from which 'safe' (IE poor) insulation values were plucked.

What are your thoughts about thermal bridges along the wall-floor and gable-ceiling junctions where the inner leaf sticks through the insulation envelope? IME these have been the difficult problem with EWI/CWI of massive old walls.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302406#Comment_302406 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302406#Comment_302406 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 17:32:22 +0100 djh Posted By: RobinBI need to learn about ibuttons or similar.Now there's a blast from the past! :bigsmile:

I don't think they're likely to be what you want because you probably want to be able to read the sensors while they're in situ? iButtons need to be put into a reader, IIRC. I have a humidity monitoring system in my walls and roof, but TBH it has rarely worked properly. (the computer part of it is very poorly engineered). I'm not sure what the state of the art is these days, or what's a reasonable price. What I think you should be looking for has:
* wired sensors, so they can be read in place
* mains-powered recording system that also powers the sensors

For sensors, you could use 1-wire compnents. Homechip sells some 1-wire humidity sensors at around £50 each.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302408#Comment_302408 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302408#Comment_302408 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 18:10:14 +0100 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeengable walls above the ceiling level, porches, outbuildings, disused chimney stacksFreestanding walls (exposed to more or less same air both sides) are pretty much tolerant of freeze/thaw, than walls sheltered/inhabited on one face which even if not historically central heated were, by definition almost, kept well above freezing, one way or another.

It's not so much input of interior moisture that causes problematic interstitial condensation (incl damage by freeze-thaw of same) in stone-cold walls newly insulated from (but vapour-open to) the interior, but the lack of re-evaporation synchronised from both faces (exterior atmospheric moisture vastly exceeds interior as the prime source of water in a wall), which can get well out of synch, leading to moisture flows in either direction. A freestanding wall doesn't mind being cold as long as it's in balance with the exterior air i.e. with maximum re-evaporation potential equally from both faces.

That's why garden walls don't deteriorate like over-IWI'd house walls of same material, and why it's a good plan to build almost an insulated house within a historic shell, with copious ventilation to outside, between. The old wall then thinks it's a freestanding wall.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302412#Comment_302412 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302412#Comment_302412 Wed, 12 Jul 2023 10:21:34 +0100 WillInAberdeen
If we think about the outer leaf of an unfilled/vented cavity wall:
Most of the wetting is from rain and most drying is from sunshine and outside air. There is a little heat and some moisture vapour coming from the inside, and it will typically sit well below the interior dewpoint temperature for most of the year. The moisture loads on each face are not 'in synch'.

If somebody comes along and fills the cavity, there is now less heat from the inside, but never any vapour control so still the same moisture vapour load coming from the inside, and ventilation on the inside face has been restricted. In other words, it's been IWI'd.

But that has been done without problems in tens of millions of homes. Where there have been problems, they are due to rain. The key parameters are a) how much rain and b) does it run off or soak in.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302414#Comment_302414 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302414#Comment_302414 Wed, 12 Jul 2023 11:07:47 +0100 owlman Posted By: djh
Posted By: RobinBI need to learn about ibuttons or similar.
Now there's a blast from the past!http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:" >

I don't think they're likely to be what you want because you probably want to be able to read the sensors while they're in situ? iButtons need to be put into a reader, IIRC. I have a humidity monitoring system in my walls and roof, but TBH it has rarely worked properly. (the computer part of it is very poorly engineered). I'm not sure what the state of the art is these days, or what's a reasonable price. What I think you should be looking for has:
* wired sensors, so they can be read in place
* mains-powered recording system that a
For sensors, you could use 1-wire compnents. Homechip sells some 1-wire humidity sensors at around £50 each.


I know there are some Wi-Fi , Temperature and Humidity sensors powered by CR2354 button batteries. The ones I looked at were Solar/ambient light powered with the battery back up. In a wall cavity of course they'd be purely battery and I don't know how long that would last.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302422#Comment_302422 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302422#Comment_302422 Wed, 12 Jul 2023 14:51:27 +0100 Simon Still Posted By: owlmanl
Posted By: djh
Posted By: RobinBI need to learn about ibuttons or similar.
Now there's a blast from the past!http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:" >" title="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:" >" >

I don't think they're likely to be what you want because you probably want to be able to read the sensors while they're in situ? iButtons need to be put into a reader, IIRC. I have a humidity monitoring system in my walls and roof, but TBH it has rarely worked properly. (the computer part of it is very poorly engineered). I'm not sure what the state of the art is these days, or what's a reasonable price. What I think you should be looking for has:
* wired sensors, so they can be read in place
* mains-powered recording system that a
For sensors, you could use 1-wire compnents. Homechip sells some 1-wire humidity sensors at around £50 each.



I know there are some Wi-Fi , Temperature and Humidity sensors powered by CR2354 button batteries. The ones I looked at were Solar/ambient light powered with the battery back up. In a wall cavity of course they'd be purely battery and I don't know how long that would last.

you're also looking at trying to put wifi though a thick stone wall (which tend to block it fairly well). 1 Wire stuff sounds a better idea - they're small - you could drill a hole from the inside an poke it through https://www.teracomsystems.com/sensors/1-wire-humidity-temperature-sensor-tsh202/]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302428#Comment_302428 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302428#Comment_302428 Wed, 12 Jul 2023 23:15:03 +0100 RobinB Definitely a project to be Wufi-ed. I was musing that stone barns around here are all unheated and they still stand, but thanks to Fostertom I see it's not quite the same thing.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302429#Comment_302429 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302429#Comment_302429 Thu, 13 Jul 2023 07:57:50 +0100 fostertom And the greatest enemy of masonry is when its diurnal and/or seasonal re-evaporation (aka re-drying) potential is reduced, typically by altering the conditions of its interior face, by internal vapour barriers especially - all round better if configured to 'fail-safe' without relying on those, for multiple reasons.]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302456#Comment_302456 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302456#Comment_302456 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:07:29 +0100 Simon Still Posted By: fostertomSeems to me, a traditional masonry wall survives best when it's an uninsulated house wall i.e. kept more or less above freezing by some heat (albeit not constant powerful central heating) from the interior; second best when basically the same wall is a freestanding garden wall or unheated barn wall; worst when (unprecedented in history) it gets IWI'd and central heated on one face.
And the greatest enemy of masonry is when its diurnal and/or seasonal re-evaporation (aka re-drying) potential is reduced, typically by altering the conditions of its interior face, by internal vapour barriers especially - all round better if configured to 'fail-safe' without relying on those, for multiple reasons.

I'm missing what you're actually proposing/suggesting here. There's a clear (aesthetic/historic) desire to retain old buildings but also to turn them into modern, warm, buildings. If internally insulating old stone walls does not work what is the answer?]]> ibuttons or something else? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302458#Comment_302458 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17895&Focus=302458#Comment_302458 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 11:34:20 +0100 fostertom