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Heating and cooling: Guardian item on wood burning stoves

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  1.  
    Posted By: tonyOxford have just come out urging residents not to burn wood as they emit harmful polluting particulates

    Link ?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022
     
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen
    I've never really thought about particulates from gas heating, but I suppose there must be some. Domestic boilers and cookers don't have any exhaust treatment.
    Domestic gas boilers are a major source of Nitrogen oxides (NOx). The permissible emissions for new boilers have been progressively tightened, but they are a significant problem in cities, particularly on still winter days.

    Dug out a stat for that : in central London 5% of NOx comes from private diesel cars; 38% comes from gas for heating homes and offices. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38979754
    • CommentAuthorOsprey
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2023
     
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2023
     
    Crikey, particulates are bad news buy benzene and polycyclic hydrocarbons are carcinogenic
  6.  
    I know they have to sell their newspapers somehow, but there's a certain amount of scare tactics there. Particulates and benzene are actually at their lowest levels in the air in the UK since measurements began.
    https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/index

    Aiui, the introduction of catalytic converters to vehicles made a big difference to unburned benzene escaping in exhausts.
      Screenshot_20230109-214948.png
      Screenshot_20230109-215103.png
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI know they have to sell their newspapers somehow, but there's a certain amount of scare tactics there. Particulates and benzene are actually at their lowest levels in the air in the UK since measurements began.
    https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/index" rel="nofollow" >https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/index

    Aiui, the introduction of catalytic converters to vehicles made a big difference to unburned benzene escaping in exhausts.
      http:///newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=8445" alt="Screenshot_20230109-214948.png" >
      http:///newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=8446" alt="Screenshot_20230109-215103.png" >



    Re: Fig. 5-20 PM2.5 emissions - there are no data for domestic wood burning stoves alone included. (These are lumped in with industry and commercial) It would be interesting to have this info so as to put it into perspective alongside the other sources of particulates.
  8.  
    Monbiots article suggests if you open the door of your wood burner you will get cancer...im presuming he doesnt use candles or cook food as well.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2023
     
    Posted By: chrisinbrightonMonbiots article suggests if you open the door of your wood burner you will get cancer...im presuming he doesnt use candles or cook food as well.


    If the stove is installed properly there should be no emissions into the room. When I light mine I leave the door slightly ajar as this creates an excellent draught to get the fire going. It states that in the instructions. Then when opening the door to put on more fuel I open the door very slightly so that there is an extra inrush from the room (the stove combustion air is ducted from outside) which ensures no escape into the room.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2023
     
    Posted By: Jeff B
    Re: Fig. 5-20 PM2.5 emissions - there are no data for domestic wood burning stoves alone included. (These are lumped in with industry and commercial) It would be interesting to have this info so as to put it into perspective alongside the other sources of particulates.

    From the DEFRA annual report P 91 (thank you WiA for linking):
    "However, domestic combustion of wood has increased over the long term, and by
    42% since 2000; this has now grown to become a substantial source of total PM 2.5
    emissions (rising from 3% in 1990 to 17% of total emissions in 2020)."
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2023
     
    I wonder what % of emissions the 2020 figure would have been based on the 1990 total emissions?
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2023
     
    Posted By: bhommels
    Posted By: Jeff B
    Re: Fig. 5-20 PM2.5 emissions - there are no data for domestic wood burning stoves alone included. (These are lumped in with industry and commercial) It would be interesting to have this info so as to put it into perspective alongside the other sources of particulates.

    From the DEFRA annual report P 91 (thank you WiA for linking):
    "However, domestic combustion of wood has increased over the long term, and by
    42% since 2000; this has now grown to become a substantial source of total PM 2.5
    emissions (rising from 3% in 1990 to 17% of total emissions in 2020)."


    Thanks.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2023
     
    Posted By: JontiI wonder what % of emissions the 2020 figure would have been based on the 1990 total emissions?


    Sorry I don't understand your comment - can you rephrase please?
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2023
     
    It was 3% of the total emissions in 1990 and 17% of the total in 2020 but the base line is different in each year so a poor comparison. I just wondered what the 2020 figure would be compared to the 1990 baseline.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: JontiIt was 3% of the total emissions in 1990 and 17% of the total in 2020 but the base line is different in each year so a poor comparison. I just wondered what the 2020 figure would be compared to the 1990 baseline.


    Looking at Fig. 5-20: total PM2.5 emissions look to be approx 240 kt in 1990 and 75 kt in 2020.

    So 3% of 240 kt = 7.2 kt and 17% of 75 kt = 12.8 kt. Therefore I calculate amount of PM2.5 from domestic wood burning has increased by (12.8 - 7.2)/7.2 = 78%.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2023
     
    Thanks Jeff. That would seem to me to be the clearer comparison.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2023
     
    Posted By: Jeff B
    Looking at Fig. 5-20: total PM2.5 emissions look to be approx 240 kt in 1990 and 75 kt in 2020.

    So 3% of 240 kt = 7.2 kt and 17% of 75 kt = 12.8 kt. Therefore I calculate amount of PM2.5 from domestic wood burning has increased by (12.8 - 7.2)/7.2 = 78%.

    Wow. Thanks for pointing out that it went up in absolute as well as relative terms. Rather worrying, given that most of the rise came from the last 2 decades as quoted earlier. I am not optimistic about this trend reversing anytime soon.
  18.  
    Posted By: bhommels
    Posted By: Jeff B
    Looking at Fig. 5-20: total PM2.5 emissions look to be approx 240 kt in 1990 and 75 kt in 2020.

    So 3% of 240 kt = 7.2 kt and 17% of 75 kt = 12.8 kt. Therefore I calculate amount of PM2.5 from domestic wood burning has increased by (12.8 - 7.2)/7.2 = 78%.

    Wow. Thanks for pointing out that it went up in absolute as well as relative terms. Rather worrying, given that most of the rise came from the last 2 decades as quoted earlier. I am not optimistic about this trend reversing anytime soon.

    Yup
    My sister has just installed PV and a battery to mitigate the cost of electricity and now uses her wood burner (an older variety) daily (instead of previously occasionally for aesthetics) to mitigate the cost of gas.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2023
     
    Shame the governments of the world have been so slow to embrace clean energy generation and here in the UK failed to enforce decent building standards.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeJan 12th 2023
     
    Posted By: bhommels
    Posted By: Jeff B
    Looking at Fig. 5-20: total PM2.5 emissions look to be approx 240 kt in 1990 and 75 kt in 2020.

    So 3% of 240 kt = 7.2 kt and 17% of 75 kt = 12.8 kt. Therefore I calculate amount of PM2.5 from domestic wood burning has increased by (12.8 - 7.2)/7.2 = 78%.

    Wow. Thanks for pointing out that it went up in absolute as well as relative terms. Rather worrying, given that most of the rise came from the last 2 decades as quoted earlier. I am not optimistic about this trend reversing anytime soon.


    I have to confess that we installed a wood burning stove this summer ready for this winter. It is supposed to be the best spec available (SIA Ecodesign certified, DEFRA exempt for burning wood logs in smokeless zones, and ClearSkies Level 5 certified).

    We are experimenting with it at the moment in as much as we run the C/H in the morning using the oil fired boiler and then the log burner in the late afternoon/evening on one day and the C/H the evening of the next day. I have fitted an hour meter to monitor the amount of time the oil burner is actually firing so I can calculate the amount of oil being burned over any particular time period. So we are comparing the amount of wood we burn in the evenings to the amount of oil we use over the same period on alternate nights (not sure if that makes sense when reading back!).

    Have only been doing this for 4 days so far, so not enough data to make any conclusions as yet. Obviously the outside temperature is fluctuating day by day, so could take a while yet!
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2023
     
    The Guardian keeps it coming:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/27/worst-london-air-pollution-in-six-years-as-home-fires-burn
    It makes a good point in that the release of particulates from wood burning is highly concentrated in time and location, making the effects far worse than the annual averages suggest. The other point being of course that where wood burning particulates are most harmful, i.e. in cities, is exactly where better alternatives are available.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2023
     
    Not sure how this will be enforced??
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64261624
  23.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: philedge</cite>Not sure how this will be enforced??
    <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64261624" rel="nofollow">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64261624</a></blockquote>

    Will probably be done with council drones..a good money earner for them.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2023
     
    So if I lived in England, I could put a bbq in place of my wood burner and the emissions don't matter :shocked: I thought the rule was to combat particle emissions but apparently its just to punish those who don't heat with gas or oil.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2023
     
    Posted By: philedgeNot sure how this will be enforced??
    Won't it simply be a case of making it illegal to sell new stoves that don't meet the new rules?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 1st 2023
     
    Posted By: JontiSo if I lived in England, I could put a bbq in place of my wood burner and the emissions don't matter
    If you can stand having a BBQ indoors and running a lot more than cooking time, you ought to get a prize :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2023
     
    Anyone remember the long, long thread a few years back about the person with the neighbour who continually smoked him out of his property?

    Not sure what the final position was but i think it involved a massively high flue outlet.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2023
     
    The main problem as far as I can make out is those who burn wet wood and treated wood like old pallets. My wood is dried for 3 to 4 years and when I burn it next day my door glass is crystal clear only a wipe with a paper tissue reveals any trace of soot. When the glass is thick with tar, which I have witnessed in others houses, it indicates poor incomplete combustion.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2023
     
    It is not the particles that you can see that are dangerous, it is the very tiny ones.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2023
     
    I wonder how they reached the 38% quoted. I would assume it was more theory than fact.

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