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Housing - New Build: New-build heating options- feedback welcome

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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    Gets that grey fluff out with little water or effort.

    Seen over at the other place:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaStrange lot in Devon
    unlike Cornwall. Just back from Estonia, where I can report the cold tap water is extraordinarily cold even after a continental summer - like it suddenly gets in UK about New Year, when the new cold wave reaches to 1m deep. Must be Putin's fault.
    • CommentAuthorGarethC
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    Leaving the water running whilst scrubbing/lathering has always seemed a bit silly to me. Just turn the water off while doing so, save 40% of the water and fuel. The single best DHW reducing measure there is I reckon.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    Posted By: GarethCJust turn the water off while doing so
    What is needed is a foot switch. Stand on it for water, step off for no water. Can't be that hard.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014
     
    Great when washing smelly feet
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2014 edited
     
    If you had a shower water heat recovery system as efficient as a MVHR system you could stay in the shower all day and it would hardly cost anything, and you'd have time to wash all the essential bits :wink:
  7.  
    Posted By: ActivePassiveI am not convinced about a 500kWh 'capacitor' in about a cubic metre of space, unless this inventor has discovered something everyone in the automotive and energy industries have been trying to discover for years?
    Lithium-Ion batteries in cars run between 50kWh/m3 and 100 kWh/m3 and cost at best $250/kWh. Ultracapacitors and flywheels typically run at much lower densities and higher costs, and can only store energy for short periods. Yet, Viking is suggesting that they are about to start using a technology with energy densities of 500kWh/m3 10 times better than is available in todays electric cars. If you assumed costs of equivalent to batteries in electric cars of $250/kWh it would apply a cost of $125,000, which I think would be unlikely and would have a very long payback.
    Either way, without more detail, I would be very very sceptical of the claims being made.
    I was approached by some inventors involved in Green Motor Sport, they want to put their technology into Passive Houses, they've already trialed it in electric cars for a number of years. The first 20 house development will be built in Wales towards the back end of this year. You're welcome to come and put your hand into the wound!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2014
     
    Some context: a Nissan Leaf battery is 24 kWh. The FIA limit for Formula E is 28 kWh. I don't doubt there's an interesting battery involved here but really think there's been some misunderstanding along the way on capacity. That sort of thing happens.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
    http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2014/september/the-formula-e-battery-a-qa-with-craig-wilson.aspx

    Two Formula E batteries would have an output _power_ of about 500 kW but you'd run them flat in less than 10 minutes taking that.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2014
     
    and melt all the wires too!
    • CommentAuthorGarethC
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2014
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SteamyTea</cite><blockquote></blockquote>What is needed is a foot switch. Stand on it for water, step off for no water. Can't be that hard.</blockquote>

    Sorry to swing the thread off course a bit again, but this just might be genius. Might be cheap and easy enough, but make enough of a difference, to represent something actually worth doing to reduce DHW. Think your solution would be harder and pricier Triassic?

    Don't worry ST, once I've patented your idea and made my millions, I'll be sure to buy you a beer

    :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2014
     
    Posted By: GarethCI'll be sure to buy you a beer
    Just a cuppa will do me, milk no sugar.

    I am sure I have used one when I lived in the West Indies.
    The Island I lived on had no natural fresh water, and little rainfall. It was a coral island. Most of the water was distilled from the sea (this was part of my Father's job) or brought in from Venezuela via tanker. I am sure that there was a shower on the beach that had a large stainless steel pad you stepped on to operate it.
    I have a feeling that it was a solar thermal system as well (this was in 1972). Strange as they refined crude oil and diesel was as cheap as anything.
    • CommentAuthorGarethC
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2014
     
    Thing I like about this is that it's quite a subtle mechanical change, but with potentially significant impact on behaviour. Moves it from being marginally slightly easier to keep the shower running all the time, to marginally slightly easier to run it only when you need the water, but with potentially quite a big water/fuel saving.

    Presumeably you could retrofit something to many showers quite easily, especially if there was any exposed pipe between the shower head and existing taps. You could slip a valve or something (can you tell I don't actually know what I'm talking about here?) between the shower head and taps, route the actuator down to the floor of the shower, then mount a foot switch/pad to the base. The valve could be pneumatically or mechanically operated. The existing taps would be left fully on all the time.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2014
     
    The only problem I can see with a manual switch is having to stand in the shower whilst waiting for the water to get hot !!!!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: joe90The only problem I can see with a manual switch is having to stand in the shower whilst waiting for the water to get hot
    Run the tap for a few seconds.
    Though it did occur to me that it could be a problem in some places with a long pipe run. But then we should be designing out long pipe runs.
    • CommentAuthorGarethC
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: joe90The only problem I can see with a manual switch is having to stand in the shower whilst waiting for the water to get hot !!!!!


    Or direct the shower head at the shower wall?

    Posted By: joe90Though it did occur to me that it could be a problem in some places with a long pipe run.


    That a problem because it takes longer for the water to heat?
    • CommentAuthorhalfmile4
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2014 edited
     
    Hi folks. Thread originator here. Firstly, many thanks again for all the advice. I reckon I've reached most of the decisions, but plenty of time to change. Although I should finally buy the plot next week, as planning has come through OK, it seems that no-one has set the footpath diversion procedure in place, so that could be another 3 months. Could re-site the house if necessary away from path, but will wait as would prefer original siting.

    Anyway, I reckon that I going to be pretty much all-electric (something I never thought I would say), using a thick concrete floor with heating cable inserted. Economy 7 for pre-dawn heating in winter. Ditto for hot water in a standard hot water tank, then topped up from the PV panels. To moderate things I like the look of the small air-to-air A/C units, one at first with provision for another at the other end of open-plan downstairs. To keep things cool there would be the A/C, an opening roof vent and external shutters.

    The drawing shows how some of your ideas might look on the house. Will report back in due course. PF
      2:4 pane final.jpg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2014
     
    For electric heating please please do not use direct electric but through a heat pump for greater efficiency, 3 to 400%

    Then heat water and run low temp hot water through UFH pipes. That way you can add, vary or replace the heat source.

    Hope all goes brilliantly with the project (now is the time to add insulation, retrofit is very expensive)
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2014 edited
     
    Tony is that really better than spending £5K to £10K more on insulation?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2014
     
    No but you were talking about UFH wires
    • CommentAuthorward32
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2014
     
    I've been thinking about my water and heating needs for my new build and I am a fan of solar thermal. A few years ago I built my own solar thermal system completely from scratch and it cost about £700 installed. I measured the output of the panels on a sunny day and they were peaking at around 1.7Kw. They provided enough water for about 2/3rds of the year. I will provide details if people are interested!

    I saw a system at the Ecobuild show that heated the hot water from a roof panel but used a heat pump approach. The roof panel was like a solar panel but was filled with refrigerant and acted as the heat source. They claim to produce hot water throughout the year but I would imagine the COP drops in winter. Here is a link:

    http://energie.co.uk/products.html

    The company also said people have used them to provide low level heat to UFH and air ducts!
    Does anyone have an direct experience of these?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2014
     
    The other ones are thermodynamic solar panels, noisy and expensive, generally the collectors ice up in winter.
    • CommentAuthorhalfmile4
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2014
     
    Hi all. Just an update on situation, plus one query. Good news and bad. Plot finally bought and detailed planning permission applied for (good) but public footpath across the site, just 20m long, needs to be diverted. Will take 4 months and cost £2k!

    We are talking to 2-3 frame suppliers (timber and SIPS) and getting glazing quotes, etc., plus clearing the site.

    SAPs question. I'm finding the easily available worksheet (v. 9.80) helpful to tweak build details, but cannot find any associated notes and tables. Anyone know of a source?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2014
     
    Posted By: halfmile4public footpath across the site, just 20m long, needs to be diverted. Will take 4 months and cost £2k!

    Perhaps I'm getting cynical in my dotage but that sounds like a lucky escape!
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2014
     
    £2k to move a stile or two and a yellow piece of timber? Is it administrative work to update the OS etc?
    • CommentAuthorJamster
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2014
     
    Posted By: gravelld£2k to move a stile or two and a yellow piece of timber? Is it administrative work to update the OS etc?

    I think you have to move the stile yourself! The justification seems to be officer time spent running through the predictably tedious process. I hope you don't get a self-appointed busybody objecting to the move as their 4-th generation family members serf used it to get the coal in or something similar...
  26.  
    Posted By: JamsterI hope you don't get a self-appointed busybody objecting to the move as their 4-th generation family members serf used it to get the coal in or something similar...

    If the diversion involves the footpath being just a bit longer expect an objection from the ramblers assn. My experience was that any lengthening was objected to as a matter or course
    • CommentAuthorJamster
    • CommentTimeDec 11th 2014
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryIf the diversion involves the footpath being just a bit longer expect an objection from the ramblers assn. My experience was that any lengthening was objected to as a matter or course


    You'd think they'd be happy with a longer path - take them longer to do the walk after all!

    We had a 'discussion' with a PRW Officer over their updating of the definitive map to the wrong side of a wall when all the information on the ground (stiles, etc) pointed to be it on the other. Common sense prevailed when we pointed out that the map they'd based said update on had a line so thick it scaled to approx 15 metres at ground level which was significantly more than the error distance we were trying to point out to them. And we asked them for verification of the data processing they'd done, what evidence they had to choose that particular route, the qualifications / experience of the individual that had done the digitisation, what controls were in place to ensure accuracy, how many other complaints had been received about the digitisation process... All helps to make them consider if they want to fight that battle for something that would deliver no benefit...
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2014 edited
     
    Rather than use E7 to heat the water in the thermal store, one option could be to simply use an in line instantaneous water heater at the point of use.

    Warm water is drawn from the store and the temperature raised the last few degrees to the desired output temperature. All explained in the blog, starting about half way down......http://www.ebuild.co.uk/blog/12/entry-227-part-thirty-four-things-are-going-slowly-and-some-hot-water-stuff/

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