Green Building Forum - Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press Tue, 19 Dec 2023 06:01:41 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253695#Comment_253695 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253695#Comment_253695 Thu, 02 Feb 2017 14:30:28 +0000 SteamyTea https://www.newscientist.com/article/2119595-wood-burners-london-air-pollution-is-just-tip-of-the-iceberg/

By Michael Le Page

Last week, air pollution in London soared to heights not seen since 2011. The usual suspects were named and shamed, including traffic fumes and a lack of wind. But joining them was a surprising culprit.

“We think about half of the peak was from wood smoke,” says Timothy Baker, part of a team at King’s College London that monitors air pollution.

The trendy log-burning stoves producing much of this pollution are marketed as a source of renewable energy that can cut fuel bills while helping reduce global warming. But recent findings suggest they pose a serious threat to the health of their owners, and are also accelerating climate change in the short term.

If nothing is done to discourage log burning in homes, it could become the biggest source of air pollution in cities like London. In the UK as a whole, wood burning is already officially the single biggest source of an especially nasty form of air pollution.

“I love sitting by a log fire as much as the next person but maybe we need to think again before it’s too late,” says climate scientist Piers Forster of the University of Leeds, UK.

Air pollution is awful for our health. The smallest particles get into our blood and even our brains, increasing the risk of many disorders including heart disease.
Natural killer

Children are especially vulnerable: high pollution levels impair their lung and brain development. Air pollution from all sources is estimated to cause some 10,000 premature deaths a year in London alone, where it frequently exceeds legal limits.

Wood smoke may be natural, but it contains many of the same harmful substances as cigarette smoke. It’s a massive killer worldwide, causing as many as 4 million premature deaths every year through indoor air pollution.

In the UK, however, the problem with pollution from wood fires was thought to have been solved by clean air laws introduced in the 1950s, which banned wood burning in open fires in cities. “The official view is that residential wood burning is a thing of the past,” says Gary Fuller of King’s College London.

Yet logs can still be burned in officially approved stoves in cities. Sales of these stoves have soared in the past decade, rising to nearly 200,000 a year. They are marketed as a way for people to drastically reduce their carbon emissions and save on fuel costs.

Even modern stoves described as “low emission” are highly polluting. And in an echo of the diesel car emissions scandal, measurements during actual use in homes show that the stoves produce more pollution than lab tests suggest.

In the “smokeless” fumes coming from the chimney of a house with a modern “eco-friendly” wood burner, Kåre Press-Kristensen of the Danish Ecological Council has measured 500,000 microscopic particles per cubic centimetre. The same equipment finds fewer than 1000 particles per cm3 in the exhaust fumes of a modern truck. The wood stove was certified as meeting Nordic Swan Ecolabel emission standards, which are stricter than the ones stoves in the UK have to meet.
Big in London

What this means is that a small increase in wood-burning stoves can produce a big increase in pollution. In Copenhagen, a city of 600,000 people, just 16,000 wood stoves produce more PM2.5 pollution – the most dangerous particles, smaller than 2.5 micrometres – during winter than traffic does all year round, says Press-Kristensen.

Wood burning is becoming a big problem in London, too. In 2010, when Fuller analysed particulate pollution to discover its source, he found that 10 per cent of all the city’s wintertime pollution was from wood.

There are many reasons to think that figure is higher now. A 2015 government survey found that domestic wood consumption in the UK was three higher than previous estimates, with 7 per cent of respondents reporting that they burned logs. “Wood consumption is increasing substantially,” says Eddy Mitchell at the University of Leeds, UK.

When he, Forster and others fed the data on wood consumption into a computer model of air pollution, their conclusion was disturbing: PM2.5 pollution from residential stoves is soaring in the UK (see diagram, below).

“There is a real risk that if we have a lot more residential wood burning then it could undo our other efforts to control air pollution,” says Fuller.

The harm far exceeds traffic pollution, he says. While people are exposed to high levels of traffic pollution mainly when travelling on busy streets, wood burning produces huge amounts of pollution where people live, when they are at home.
Indoor smog

Press-Kristensen has been measuring that pollution inside homes in Copenhagen. In three out of seven tests done so far, he has found very high levels. In one home with a modern log-burning stove, he found particulate levels several times higher than the highest ever recorded outdoors there (see diagram, above).

So do the health impacts outweigh any climate benefits? Astonishingly, there might not be any climate benefits, at least in the short term.

Burning logs is often touted as being carbon-neutral. The idea is that trees soak up as much carbon dioxide when growing as they release when burned.

In fact, numerous studies show that wood burning is not carbon-neutral, and can sometimes be worse than burning coal. There are emissions from transport and processing. Logs are often pre-dried in kilns, for instance.

Burning wood also emits black carbon – soot – that warms the atmosphere during the short time it remains in the air. Most studies ignore this, but Mitchell and Forster calculate that over 20 years – the timescale that matters if we don’t want the world to go too far above 2°C of warming – soot cancels out half the carbon benefits of all wood burning.

For home wood burning, the figures are even worse. “On a 20-year timescale, wood stoves provide little or no benefit, but they do on the 100-year timescale as they remove some of the long-term warming effect of CO2 emissions,” says Forster.

Press-Kristensen’s calculations show much the same thing. And both sets of findings almost certainly underestimate the problem, because they assume wood burning is carbon-neutral.

Defenders of wood stoves point out that there is a lot of uncertainty about how much black carbon is emitted when wood is burned and how large its effect is. Patricia Thornley of the University of Manchester, UK, thinks we need more real-world measurements before coming to conclusions.

But the uncertainties cut both ways. For instance, the effects of black carbon can be amplified if it is deposited on snow and melts it, exposing dark land that absorbs more heat. It’s possible soot from wood burning is contributing to the fall in spring snow cover in Europe, but it’s very hard to study.

More research is needed to pin down the precise climatic effects of wood burning, which can vary hugely depending on factors such as the source of wood and where the pollution goes. What is clear, however, is that burning logs in homes in towns and cities is not the best use of the wood we have.

It produces more pollution than wood-burning power plants that can be fitted with expensive filters, it produces that harmful pollution where lots of people live, and it has the least climate benefits, if any. “If we are going to burn biomass to meet climate targets, then we ought to do it in big, remote power stations,” says Martin Williams of King’s College London, who is studying the health impacts of the ways the UK could meet its climate targets.

Most researchers say it isn’t their role to make policy recommendations, but it would be best if cities like London discourage private wood burning before it becomes an even bigger health problem. At the moment, all the focus is on diesel vehicles.

Press-Kristensen doubts governments will ban wood-burning; France recently backtracked on a proposed ban on open fires, for example. Instead, he proposes installing heat sensors in chimneys and taxing people when they burn wood, with the level of tax depending on how polluting the appliance is.

Most importantly, governments must not ignore health impacts when deciding climate policies, says Press-Kristensen. “I like fires, but I have to say they are as polluting as hell,” he says.

Thinking of getting a wood-burner?

Wood-burning stoves are touted as an eco-friendly way to heat your house cheaply. But tests now show that even new, properly installed stoves can produce dangerous levels of outdoor and indoor pollution (see main story). What other options are there?

Consider instead
Stick with gas or oil for heating, and spend your money on insulation. Get a heat pump if you can afford it

Fake it
You can get the same cosy feeling from a log-effect electric or gas fireplace, the best of which are hard to distinguish from the real thing
Already have a wood-burner?

Here’s how to minimise its effects:
Don't burn scrap wood
Scrap wood or painted wood can release highly toxic substances such as arsenic when burned

Burn wood that's just right
Burning dry wood with a moisture content of about 20 per cent minimises pollution. But if wood is wetter or drier than that, pollution increases]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253700#Comment_253700 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253700#Comment_253700 Thu, 02 Feb 2017 14:59:50 +0000 gyrogear
In Paris, it was banned, then reallowed, then banned, now it's gone all french...

http://www.pap.fr/actualites/feux-de-cheminee-sont-ils-vraiment-autorises-a-paris-et-dans-une-partie-de-l-idf/a16096

No doubt the reason is, all of the law-makers live in posh appartements, with... fireplaces

:shamed:

gg

(feeling so guilty, I've not lit the WBS today, despite 50 kph winds...)
http://www.meteofrance.com/previsions-meteo-france/bretagne/regi53]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253708#Comment_253708 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253708#Comment_253708 Thu, 02 Feb 2017 15:54:29 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: gyrogeardespite 50 kph windsWill blow the smoke back down the chimney won't it.
Anyway, we have a 50% speed increase on that.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253724#Comment_253724 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253724#Comment_253724 Thu, 02 Feb 2017 20:09:38 +0000 SimonMF Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253733#Comment_253733 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253733#Comment_253733 Thu, 02 Feb 2017 21:51:54 +0000 tony Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253736#Comment_253736 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253736#Comment_253736 Thu, 02 Feb 2017 22:50:40 +0000 Ed Davies ]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253747#Comment_253747 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253747#Comment_253747 Fri, 03 Feb 2017 12:21:32 +0000 Viking House Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253751#Comment_253751 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253751#Comment_253751 Fri, 03 Feb 2017 14:17:08 +0000 Gotanewlife Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253752#Comment_253752 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253752#Comment_253752 Fri, 03 Feb 2017 14:39:36 +0000 Ed Davies
http://vair-monitor.com/2017/01/03/dust-pollution-overview/
http://vair-monitor.com/2017/01/19/measuring-dust-levels-measure-part-23/]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253757#Comment_253757 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253757#Comment_253757 Fri, 03 Feb 2017 16:12:35 +0000 Gotanewlife Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253758#Comment_253758 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253758#Comment_253758 Fri, 03 Feb 2017 16:28:54 +0000 Ed Davies Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253767#Comment_253767 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253767#Comment_253767 Fri, 03 Feb 2017 19:01:48 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: GotanewlifeOn second thoughts, whilst I can imagine that 'steady state' pellet burners will be only a little better than wood burners I imagine that 'whole life' they must be substantially better because the beginning and end of a wood burning cycle produces much more grot than steady state, unlike a pellet burner, and with the best will in the world wood will vary considerably more than pellets from the ideal condition for burning. Lots of qualitative words in there but hey ho finger in the wind 30-50% better?
I can see that a pellet burner would be better than a wood burner but there is an amount of "pre-production" work that needs to be done (making the pellets) that is surely more than required to chop and split the wood for a wood burner, where does that factor in? Also wood can be got from anywhere but with pellets you are stuck with suppliers and their prices. When pellets first started it was using otherwise waste materials, now its an industry in its own right and has I think out grown the waste resource some time ago.

Are you thinking wood pellets or wood chips? Here pellets come dry ready to go and chips can come at any moisture content up to fresh and are harder to dry than firewood because of the difficulty of getting air flow through the middle of the pile/storage bin.

Are you considering getting rid of your TS as well and running the pellet burner like a conventional oil or gas boiler i.e. heat on demand?

Would there be a cost penalty to the annual fuel bill changing over to pellets?

I am sure that someone will be along to suggest saving the money on a (expensive) new boiler and spend the cash on demand reduction instead!]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253776#Comment_253776 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253776#Comment_253776 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 00:04:33 +0000 Gotanewlife Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253782#Comment_253782 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253782#Comment_253782 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 10:24:20 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: Gotanewlifeit is after all 450m2 with 2 wrap-around balconies and solid stone walls over 3 stories.
So just a small palace!:devil:

Sounds like you are changing to a pellet boiler to ease the work load (and life style) of a wood burner. Given the price of pellet boilers plus the hopper and feed system and to bring the comments back to the thread subject (wood burning pollution) have you costed a gas boiler running on LPG as an option? Cheap(ish) boilers, even easier operating procedures and a cleaner burning fuel. OK it's a fossil fuel but then pellets are made using fossil fuels. It is probably more expensive to run but cheaper to set up and will/should have less harmful emissions.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253787#Comment_253787 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253787#Comment_253787 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 12:12:42 +0000 Beau Posted By: tonyProven but will the government bite this bullet?

Whats proven?

That unspecified wood burners burning unspecified wood can produce high levels of dangerous particulates?

Why not approach the problem the way pollution from cars has been tackled?

More advanced combustion systems and tighter controls on emissions. Control of the fuel would be difficult but if the environmental health had some teeth maybe they could stop obvious offenders.

I don't think wood is the right fuel to use in large conurbations but don't see why it cant have it's place in rural areas.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253791#Comment_253791 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253791#Comment_253791 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 14:18:09 +0000 owlman Have you thought of running a bottle gas boiler in tandem with the WB but still feeding your TS. For occasions when you might want to hand over the wood burning in your absence. I believe there are also dual fuel logwood/pellet boilers on the market.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253794#Comment_253794 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253794#Comment_253794 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 14:49:04 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: BeauControl of the fuel would be difficult but if the environmental health had some teeth maybe they could stop obvious offenders.
The EHOs have teeth but they won't use them!!]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253795#Comment_253795 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253795#Comment_253795 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 15:09:19 +0000 owlman
"Burning dry wood with a moisture content of about 20 per cent minimises pollution. But if wood is wetter or drier than that, pollution increases."

I wasn't aware that DRIER wood was worse.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253804#Comment_253804 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253804#Comment_253804 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 17:10:03 +0000 ringi Posted By: owlmanI found this bit of STs OP interesting.

"Burning dry wood with a moisture content of about 20 per cent minimises pollution. But if wood is wetter or drier than that, pollution increases."

I wasn't aware that DRIER wood was worse.

It may be in a open fire, as it burns a lot quicker so is harder to control. It can also burn too hot in SOME boilers giving more nitrogen dioxide (NO2). But I think most people would have to work VERY hard to have wood that is too dry.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253814#Comment_253814 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253814#Comment_253814 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 18:44:48 +0000 Ed Davies
http://vair-monitor.com/2017/02/04/measuring-dust-levels-protecting-home-part-33/]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253815#Comment_253815 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253815#Comment_253815 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 18:55:51 +0000 Artiglio
There's certainly a lot more heat produced per kg using 15% as against 20% , it is certainly different controlling a dry burn, but the easiest way is to use larger pieces of wood

It had never occured to me that fuel could be too dry, i'll have a google and a read. Pellets I believe come in at around 7% ish, they are used in system installed under domestic RHI , because of the brand specified by the installer we've ended up with a boiler thats probably too large for the demand ( taking advice after installation , ideally we needed around 27 kw, boilers used by installer were either 25 or 40, aparently for rhi compliance we had to have the 40) it does however modulate down. Buffer size was increased to reduce cycling, during a burn only visible smoke or smell is during start stop of each cycle. But as noted inprevious posts this gives no real indication of possible pollutants.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253826#Comment_253826 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253826#Comment_253826 Sat, 04 Feb 2017 22:14:21 +0000 djh Posted By: ArtiglioIt had never occured to me that fuel could be too dry
I suspect, although I have absolutely no evidence, that the effect of a bit of moisture might be to reform the exhaust gases to something less noxious. However, I too am eager to learn the reasons.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253828#Comment_253828 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253828#Comment_253828 Sun, 05 Feb 2017 00:06:58 +0000 gyrogear
gg
:cry:]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253886#Comment_253886 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253886#Comment_253886 Mon, 06 Feb 2017 11:58:21 +0000 Pile-o-Stone Posted By: GotanewlifeYes am fitting IWI as we speak! But only 25mm as have solid stone walls with dubious render, albeit painted. With the best will in the world my house is never going to be low energy and it is afterall 450m2 with 2 wrap-around balconies and solid stone walls over 3 stories.

That sounds very similar to our house. We have a three story solid stone house (the walls consist of an inner and an outer stone with rubble in-fill). We're (very) slowly installing IWI and using 100mm pavadentro and aerogel for the window reveals. We're installing 100mm rockwool rigid acoustic batts into all of the ceiling/floor voids and these really make a huge difference in heat retention in the rooms we have done (and the sound quality in those rooms is amazing, so still and quiet).

I was just wondering what type of insulation you're using and why you are going with just 25mm IWI?]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253893#Comment_253893 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253893#Comment_253893 Mon, 06 Feb 2017 14:59:21 +0000 Gotanewlife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuff) with internal walls or either solid stone or hollow block. Actually we do have granite type walls on the ground floor (half underground) with in fill. The tufo stone is very lightweight, soft and immensely hygroscopic. It is covered in a very hard cement render which is let's call it 'capillary open'. Whilst I have now painted it in 4 layers of good quality masonry paint it is hardly impervious to rain. In most of the rooms it is impossible to guarantee IWI'ing in such a way as to stop water vapour getting behind the IWI in some places - for example in bathrooms where there are major penetrations, and on the top floor (4 bed 3 bathrooms) in rooms where I am fitting the IWI after the suspended ceiling. So on other threads 25mm or so is about right to minimise the risks of interstitial condensation. Furthermore and I have 3 sets of inward opening French doors on the top 2 floors (plus lots of inward opening windows) and the wood window/door frame is made as part of the wood inside to outside reveal/shutter mount, meaning it is not sensible to try and move windows and doors inward, so I have to ensure they can open adequately (though yes I 'could' chamfer the IWI near the openings) and 25mm doesn't affect the opening to any noticeable degree. I also have original cast iron radiators some are substantially more than 100kgs empty - these are mounted on concreted in steel mounts - so yes I 'could' hack them out, have some more longer ones made and then try to fit them accurately and safely (bearing in mind the increased moment of force meaning I would have to do a much better job than was originally made) but 25mm IWI looks OK around them and doesn't create issues of reducing the air-flow and I have slipped in reflective 3mm foam panels and of course another place where 100% vapour sealing is more difficult. The top floor has MVHR.

Finally, I started the renovation 6 years ago when I knew very little indeed and had never done ANY DIY; pressures to live in the house in an acceptable way (I was only theoretically habitable when we moved in), my increased understanding if house green issues, my improving DIY skill and our changing financial situation have all resulted in an evolutionary renovation. There are lots of things I would do differently now.......

I was also encouraged by Peter-in-Montreal's 25mm IWI experience and it gets alot colder there!

Ohhh and wood fibre insulation and aerogel mean you are not doing it right - you have too much money!! :):wink:]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253895#Comment_253895 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253895#Comment_253895 Mon, 06 Feb 2017 15:28:26 +0000 gyrogear Posted By: Gotanewlifemeaning it is not sensible to try and move windows and doors inward, so I have to ensure they can open adequately (though yes I 'could' chamfer the IWI near the openings) and 25mm doesn't affect the opening to any noticeable degree.

Bon giorno !

I have a similar problem in a bedroom, that has caused me to off-put any insulation works through lack of a solution...

Recently I stumbled across *these*...

http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eurocooling.com/public_html/articlesaesgetters_file/image006.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eurocooling.com/public_html/articlesaesgetters.htm&h=243&w=386&tbnid=lN7tBVDnDmQmWM:&vet=1&tbnh=90&tbnw=143&docid=ouv6zS-cXEIq-M&client=firefox-b&usg=__Um6yfB6LR0S5Dq7HC_nX5x-H0es=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiu69aN5PvRAhXKWxoKHQ1mAs8Q9QEIMjAD

(looks like they might originate in your part of the World...)

so I am exploring this approach (@ my habitual snail-pace velocity, that is...) :shocked:

gg]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253998#Comment_253998 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253998#Comment_253998 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 16:04:32 +0000 Pile-o-Stone Posted By: Gotanewlife

Ohhh and wood fibre insulation and aerogel mean you are not doing it right - you have too much money!! :)http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title=":wink:" >

Thanks for the response, it's always interesting to hear what other people are doing. As to our IWI, I wish I had too much money, or even 'enough money' :). It's a catch-22 situation we are in at the moment where we are spending a ton of money heating the house which leaves not much money to then spend on insulating the house.

We've gone for 100mm fibreboard as they're not that much more expensive than thinner versions and the main costs are the same whether we install 25mm or 100mm (i.e moving radiators, skirtings, flooring, plastering walls, painting walls, etc.) We went with the eye-wateringly expensive option of aerogel in the window reveals because we had no other options. We have steel windows set into stone mullions with very little wriggle room between the stone reveal and the start of the glass in the window. We have fitted 10mm of aerogel and then a couple of thin layers of lime plaster, and by then we've almost covered the window frame to the start of the glass.

It's so disruptive and labour intensive to do IWI, but the house is listed and we would never get permission to cover the external stonework with EWI and plaster, so we're stuck doing this.]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253999#Comment_253999 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=253999#Comment_253999 Wed, 08 Feb 2017 16:10:53 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: Pile-o-StoneWe have steel windows set into stone mullions with very little wriggle room between the stone reveal and the start of the glass in the window.
Would you get away with (removable) secondary glazing?]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=254011#Comment_254011 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=254011#Comment_254011 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 08:35:05 +0000 Pile-o-Stone Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
Posted By: Pile-o-StoneWe have steel windows set into stone mullions with very little wriggle room between the stone reveal and the start of the glass in the window.

Would you get away with (removable) secondary glazing?

We don't have an issue with the sound and thermal qualities of the windows, just with thinness of the frames. We are using 10mm spacetherm blankets mechanically attached to the reveals, with lime plaster on top and they look fine, it's just an expensive business. To be fair, we chose the frames to be thin because our windows are like arrow slots and so we wanted to maximise the amount of light coming in. The old frames were wood and quite chunky, especially the ones that opened (a double frame that left us with not a huge amount of glass in the window!).]]> Wood Burning Stoves in the popular science press http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=254021#Comment_254021 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14888&Focus=254021#Comment_254021 Thu, 09 Feb 2017 10:31:59 +0000 SteamyTea
I think this highlights one of the problems with air pollution, no one cares much as it is not doing any obvious damage today.]]>