Green Building Forum - Less of the hair shirts. Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:35:20 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258406#Comment_258406 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258406#Comment_258406 Fri, 26 May 2017 11:26:57 +0100 gravelld
Curtis reckons it's failing because the climate advocates, led by science, are portraying a doomsday scenario without any hope for the future and no lauding of the side benefits of the restructuring of society that could take place to fix climate change.

This made me stop and listen, because I think the opposite.

To me, I think one of the main things holding back solutions to climate change is the way any climate advocacy is identified as being tied to a broader plot by the left to use climate change to enforce their principles. Similarly, "hair shirtism" (my name) which I see quite a lot on this forum, is an easy way to point out how fixing climate change will hurt the economy, make you poorer, less comfortable etc etc.

I think we need to stop preaching and show people how their lives can be better by fixing climate change. Not by abstract ideals or far off warnings of what calamaties may arise, but by showing here and now how building houses better (as an example) improve people's lives in a tangible, immediate way.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258411#Comment_258411 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258411#Comment_258411 Fri, 26 May 2017 12:44:02 +0100 fostertom Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258413#Comment_258413 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258413#Comment_258413 Fri, 26 May 2017 13:07:41 +0100 djh Posted By: gravelldTo me, I think one of the main things holding back solutions to climate change is the way any climate advocacy is identified as being tied to a broader plot by the left to use climate change to enforce their principles.
That's the reason I'm not voting green in this election. All the coverage of their policies seems to be about left wing social policies rather than about actual green issues.

The sad thing is that at the moment I've identified reasons not to vote for any of the parties standing in my constituency. There is one independent but I have no idea who he is or what policies he stands for!]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258416#Comment_258416 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258416#Comment_258416 Fri, 26 May 2017 13:37:28 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: gravelld"hair shirtism" (my name) which I see quite a lot on this forumEg?]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258417#Comment_258417 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258417#Comment_258417 Fri, 26 May 2017 13:46:41 +0100 dimengineer
The other big item is indeed the "hair shirtism" where the greens basically are telling us that we will all have to be poorer. Not travel. Not consume. Given that a pretty fundamental human desire is to better yourself, to improve your life, be wealthier than your parents, they are onto a real loser.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258418#Comment_258418 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258418#Comment_258418 Fri, 26 May 2017 14:23:33 +0100 Artiglio Hopefully the growth of reasonably priced renewables will continue and a sensible compromise between energy efficiency and ease of build will be achieved in terms of housing provision. (Somewhere around the B/C boundary), in the short term and gradual improvements over the years.
The whole green / global warming debate is more a marathon than a sprint , societies views will be far more accepting and expectant of chang eand improvement in a generation or two.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258419#Comment_258419 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258419#Comment_258419 Fri, 26 May 2017 15:10:21 +0100 gravelld Posted By: Ed DaviesEg?
Suggestions energy prices should rise. Maybe eventually once energy use for domestics are trivial, but to avoid regressive damage to the poorest we have to fix the underlying problems first.

Suggestions people should get on their bike (!) instead of driving. Not realistic for most people.

Turning the thermostat down.

"Bathing in 5cm of water is good enough for me".

That kind of thing.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258420#Comment_258420 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258420#Comment_258420 Fri, 26 May 2017 15:58:48 +0100 fostertom Posted By: djhI'm not voting green in this election. All the coverage of their policies seems to be about left wing social policies rather than about actual green issues
Posted By: dimengineerMuch of the green party agenda is thinly diguised anti capitalist policies
Would "unfettered free enterprise will solve this unexpected mess" policies be more palatable?

Posted By: dimengineerthe greens basically are telling us that we will all have to be poorer. Not travel. Not consume
Agreed - stuck in the 90s, fundamentally saying that 'growth' can't be decoupled from resource use = pollution (incl GHG) - but that's already happening, to everyone's surprise (and to many Greens, disappointment, because yes, it's a haven for many who would in history have been austere religious Puritans).

It's clear that technology is the way forward - but absolutely not as it's currently playing. If it continues in the dominant belief
Posted By: dimengineerthat a pretty fundamental human desire is to better yourself, to improve your life, be wealthier than your parents
then the planet's still
Posted By: dimengineeronto a real loser
]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258423#Comment_258423 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258423#Comment_258423 Fri, 26 May 2017 16:18:06 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: gravelldSuggestions energy prices should rise. Maybe eventually once energy use for domestics are trivial, but to avoid regressive damage to the poorest we have to fix the underlying problems first.It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad that when green/left peeps suggest using market mechanisms (energy prices) to motivate fixing problems the right wingers scream “think of the poor people”. Then when the green/lefties suggest that we need social policies to counteract that they scream “communist” indicating that's probably not what they were actually bothered about in the first place.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258424#Comment_258424 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258424#Comment_258424 Fri, 26 May 2017 16:18:11 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: djhThat's the reason I'm not voting green in this election. All the coverage of their policies seems to be about left wing social policies rather than about actual green issues.So, if you're a green party, what do you do?

1) Concentrate on environmental issues alone and be dismissed as one-issue cranks? or

2) Espouse left-wing policies which will likely have broad support amongst most of your existing base but lose you a few further to the right? or

3) Espouse right-wing policies which will likely lose you most of your existing base and not pick up much support from the right wing?]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258426#Comment_258426 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258426#Comment_258426 Fri, 26 May 2017 16:31:18 +0100 djh Posted By: Ed Davies1) Concentrate on environmental issues alone and be dismissed as one-issue cranks?
It worked for UKIP]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258430#Comment_258430 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258430#Comment_258430 Fri, 26 May 2017 17:25:09 +0100 fostertom
Radical 'parties' should keep out of mainstream politics, not get lured into where they have to compromise and deal, lose their way and end up being led by infantile power-brokers. It's happened so many times.

Stay out, remain a think tank or pressure group - far more effective to change the zeitgeist.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258431#Comment_258431 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258431#Comment_258431 Fri, 26 May 2017 17:33:31 +0100 gravelld Posted By: fostertomWould "unfettered free enterprise will solve this unexpected mess" policies be more palatable?
False dichotomy.

Posted By: Ed Davies
Posted By: gravelldSuggestions energy prices should rise. Maybe eventually once energy use for domestics are trivial, but to avoid regressive damage to the poorest we have to fix the underlying problems first.
It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad that when green/left peeps suggest using market mechanisms (energy prices) to motivate fixing problems the right wingers scream “think of the poor people”. Then when the green/lefties suggest that we need social policies to counteract that they scream “communist” indicating that's probably not what they were actually bothered about in the first place.
I'm not a right winger, just to be clear. I just believe in fixing problems at source, rather than have the market derive a de-optmised solution or government derive a solution with unintended consequences which then details the market and the right wingers start calling foul.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258432#Comment_258432 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258432#Comment_258432 Fri, 26 May 2017 17:35:23 +0100 gravelld Posted By: djh
Posted By: Ed Davies1) Concentrate on environmental issues alone and be dismissed as one-issue cranks?

It worked for UKIPUKIP have popular policies though which talk to people's actual fears and day to day existence (like how much their wages are and whether they can get a job). For all the wrong reasons of course, but still.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258433#Comment_258433 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258433#Comment_258433 Fri, 26 May 2017 17:37:57 +0100 Ed Davies Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258443#Comment_258443 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258443#Comment_258443 Fri, 26 May 2017 22:31:51 +0100 djh Posted By: Ed DaviesYeah, helps if you're in a country full of one-issue cranks on the same issue.
Not sure what that exactly means, and I can't be bothered to work it out. If you mean a country (and what is that, a state or a 'nation'?) that believes something that none of the existing parties believe in, then that sounds quite a lot like the green issues. Though I'll grant you that there's some work to be done on the depth of the belief, but that's a different question.]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258444#Comment_258444 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258444#Comment_258444 Fri, 26 May 2017 22:33:58 +0100 djh Posted By: fostertomRadical 'parties' should keep out of mainstream politics, not get lured into where they have to compromise and deal, lose their way and end up being led by infantile power-brokers. It's happened so many times.
Again though, it worked for UKIP, didn't it? And if there's any backsliding you can bet it will work again, in spades.

Stay out, remain a think tank or pressure group - far more effective to change the zeitgeist.

Care to list a few examples of that working in practice then, Tom?]]> Less of the hair shirts. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258448#Comment_258448 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15104&Focus=258448#Comment_258448 Sat, 27 May 2017 05:44:06 +0100 GarethC