Posted By: stormMy idea is that all ecologically minded folk should incorporate mini farms into their homes. Nothing elaborate, perhaps just a (rescue) chicken or two..

We keep chickens. I don't think people realise how much space they need. Three chickens could quite easily dig up most peoples entire garden. Sadly many people keem them caged up in small runs bought from garden centers.

There's lots of knowledge and research on arranging things so chickens can co-exist with gardens - it's a main-plank of Permaculture!

You'd better get a pair of goats then! Potatoes and garlic and root crops should grow OK and a windowsill for the chillis.

Storm, With respect, I'm not going to stop drinking milk because you show me a video of one dairy farm somewhere in America that treats it's animals poorly.

I've worked on a few dairy farms in the UK and don't have any issues with the working practices I've seen.

So yes, I'll still buy supermarket milk. Do you, as you seem to suggest, hold me personally responsible for the cruelty to these animals in America?

I can well understand your outrage storm, in the treatment of those poor animals and I can only speak from my own experience as a one-time dairy farmer when I say that that level of cruelty is probably not typical. Milk production offers small margins and and stress is the first thing that curtails yield. Normally strangers are not permitted in the milking parlour as it spooks some animals and the fear is contageous so abuse on the scale in the video is probably for giant farms (500 cows +) so that individuals maltreating animals doesn't show up in production.

Animal welfare in Europe is not perfect but is streets better than in the USA. Pig crates and calf stalls are prohibited and inspection, certainly since CJD raised it's ugly head, is now a complaint amongst farmers in northern Spain so that means it's probably working. But we've still got inflated chicken breasts on sale which means the very poorest of conditions for broilers.

Food outlets offering ethical goods are in a bind as anything they buy is probably from an industrial source somewhere in the chain. My local market struggles to compete with supermarkets because they are aware that people in the main buy on price. When I ask the butcher to stock a better quality meat that I will buy he says that it will bankrupt him because his regular clientel will react with their feet.

I'm putting my money on the sixth extinction to clear this mess up.

Steamytea, you wouldn't be one of those gremlin critters by any chance, would you ? I mean those guys will eat just about anything ! Speaking of which, be careful not to chew upon the *hoof *when you eat of the goat, quite apart from the obvious, that your teeth will get all smashed up. Be warned !! Such culinery venture will wreak no end of havoc upon your digestion

When, having eaten enough of the hapless goat, you wish to quench your thirst. Then down the steamy and hot, of which you are well accustomed. Diluted to taste, of course, with the filthy white liquid.

Burp ! Mmmmm, Yum, YUM ! Bon apatit.

I've got it, Steamy ! You are not a gremlin after all, you're one of those reptilians !
I am led to believe that they can be quite partial to the raw innards of sheep and the like. Speaking of which, I had an unexpected and most unwelcome visit of the lizardy kind in the wee hours of this morning as it happens. Synchronicity maybe. Wasn't you was it , Steamy ? a tap, tap, tapping on the window of the conservatory in which I sleep. A most unpleasent experience I have to say,in particular, when living alone in such an isolated location. Most impolite too, turning up unannounced as it did ....

Anyone here, met with this type of phenomenon yet ? This was a first for me.



Anyway, I digress, Steamycuppa, surely you are not attempting to advocate the consumption of processed food merely because of this somewhat dubious claim as to its energy efficiency. I am no expert in the field of speed of production I hasten to point out. However, even if this were the case, who the hell cares how * efficient * the production methods are for this processed denatured fodder, this insult to the human system, which they perversly term as " food ". To be more correct, a concoction of dead matter and toxins, somewhat akin to fecal deposit in many ways. Devoid of sustenance, riddled with additives, chemicals and E-numbers and which, apart from orthodox medicine, is without president, the number one cause of major illness and death throughout Western society.

I don't give a rats backside, how low the transport costs of this poisonous convenience is. I know one thing for sure, I do not want this rubbish circulating around within my body !

You speak of very little waste. Well what about the WASTE of people's lives ? How can you uphold a process which is the direct cause of the epidemic of diabetes and hyperglycemia which has swept the nation. Of the countless children whom are struck down with this ennervating and distressing condition , Of the thousands upon thousands of people, struck blind, made weak and hopeless because of the crap piled high in the local super markets. What of the obeseity epidemic ? of M.E ? Kidney failure ? Heart failure ? Arthritis ? Alzheimers ? Cancer ? ... The list is endless, and all immunodeficency related, all linked to almost zero quality nutrition due to the processing industry.

Get the rotten stuff off the shelves and replace with life enhancing health promoting nourishment. REAL FOOD ! That which gives energy and joie de vivre, Let the people experience what it is to be truly ALIVE !

The mass production of food unfortunately is a fact of modern life. The preservatives are added to give extended shelf life, without them it would be virtually impossible to get food to a large city population without severe risk of food poisoning. Cheap food is needed for those at the bottom end of the pay scale. Unfortunately cheap food today means white flour and beet sugar! Here this translates to recipes such as white flour pasta sprinkled with ground poppy seed and sugar (white granulated of course) and for the adults washed down with dubious wine at 75p a ltr. The results of this can be seen in the GP’s surgery with obesity, high blood pressure and diabetes. (Don’t start me on the debate about cheap whole foods subsidised from the reduction in health care budget, the role of preventative medicine, education etc.)

Before the industrial revolution over 80% of the population was employed in agriculture, now it is about 2or 3%. Without industrial agriculture the population of Europe would be quite hungry. Having said that I believe that this is little excuse for the extreme varieties such as the dairy cows detailed by ‘Storm’ and I would here mention the Belgian Blue beef cattle designed to give more steak per carcase but at the cost of calving. (A pure bread Belgian Blue cannot calve naturally, caesarean section is the norm) Even the Blond D’Aquatain has a 1 to 2% caesarean section rate. The traditional breeds have far less problems but produce less.

People should prepare their food from good quality raw ingredients preferably organically grown. Unfortunately today when both partners have to work in a main job that is other than home maker it is very difficult to avoid convenience foods and few can afford the equivalent of organic whole food convenience foods.

I count myself lucky to be able to grow my food and sell organic produce to my customers, (we farm 30ha with the main product being Hungarian Grey beef cattle), but in order to get to this situation I had to work in industry for over 25 years and then had to move country to achieve my dream (I made the mistake of choosing the wrong parents so I could not inherit a farm!) But the 30ha is insufficient for a living, we need tourists and translation to supplement the farm income.

Yes we eat meat, and eggs and milk (organic from a traditional breed) and cheese which sometimes we make. But I also know we are lucky and I know many who through no fault of their own can not afford whole foods (mine or anyone else’s) and can just about manage on ‘supermarket own brand’ produced to a budget price. Apart from personal desires I have to produce organically because as a small farmer I can not produce at a price anywhere near that of the supermarkets and it is pointless trying. Conventional food (and by that I mean agro-chemical) is for the time being cheaper to produce than organic food and for a great many this is all that is affordable.

Education will help change the junk food culture, we do our bit by having school visits and promotion days but at the end of the day diet is much about budget and today the cheaper end of the food options are killing and maiming the population.

Sorry if this rant is a bit long
Peter

The poor do indeed need industrially reared animals to fit their budget, the people in the pub drinking beer at £3 a pint are not poor they are being selective about how they spend their disposable income. There are enough people here who for various reason could not afford to go into the pub ever. The poverty/problems are different in Hungary and here the health and dentistry problems can be narrowed down to white flour, beet sugar, alcohol and tobacco.

With regard to the 30ha, we knew when we purchased the farm that it would not provide a total income, and tourism and translation was built into the plan. The reason it won’t support a family is that it is too poor a grade of land, but ideal for grazing. One problem with the large flat fertile areas of land is 300mm to 600mm of rain a year and temperatures of 30+ in the summer. Irrigation is needed but they are finding that on the great plane (the large flat fertile area) the ground water level is dropping due to irrigation demands. Doubling production can not be achieved without drastically changing the input. This means more irrigation, fertiliser, different crops and breeds of animals. My beef herd is a traditional type that can live outside all year, (down to -20 in winter and above 30 in summer) calving is outside in the fields and the bull runs with the herd.
To increase production I would need to change the breed type to a modern breed which would need housing, require slurry pits, require higher energy feed stuffs and put a lot more pressure on the environment. I have a neighbour who has increased his organic production, but to do this he has put up a large poly tunnel, he imports compost and manure and irrigates from a bore hole. This flies in the face of sustainability since he is relying on imported support for his crops but at least its organic. (The Swiss organic regs severely restrict what can be imported on to a farm by way of input and what he does would not be allowed there.) In the main doubling production I believe can only be done at the expense of the environment and quality.
Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that if I wanted to create a sustainable Europe for the future I would not want to start from where we are today.
Peter

Marktime, Adwindrum and Peter in Hungary, Many thanks for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge. I appreciate and value your comments.


From a greater perspective, I have to say, it is total fallacy that the so called poor, here in the West, cannot afford to eat healthily. Or that it is simply too bothersome and time consuming in this modern age to make proper meals. I will readily admit that, to a degree, I had fallen into the same kind of misconception myself. The food I used to eat had to be FAST as I do not appreciate * anything * which constitutes encroaching on my valuable time. I quite simply didn't have the patience for cooking, and still don't.

Up until relatively recently I, myself, played russian roulette with my health. Consuming liberal helpings of garbage foods. Consisting of endless snacks, vegetarian ready meals, crisps and sweets. Indeed it was precisely because of the worrying amount of expenditure I was frittering away on this '"food ", ( which disappeared down the ever gaping hatch at frightening speed. ) which left me still constantly hungry, as well as bloated and tired, that I was, eventually, motivated to make the all important shift to an infinitely healthier and, mercifully, MUCH cheaper, and energy enriching lifestyle.

I find, that an organic delivery of veg's - ( ie, Potatoes, carrots, sweedes, beetroot, leeks ) stay fresh for absolute weeks on end. I choose red cabbage over green as it lasts so much longer and is super rich in nutrients, I also adore red onions over white as they make everything taste that much more delicious, cooked or uncooked, they are top of my list Purifies the blood ! Time needed for making this cuisine at the very max is 30 mins. ( less time, infact than many ready meals ) It takes less than 5 mins to chop up a few veg, ( no need to peel anything, scandalous waste of time, and far healthir with the skin left in tact anyway ) Then throw into a saucepan, pour on boiling water from a kettle. Leave boiling, Replace lid, ( leave a crack open for the steam to vent ) Return in 25 - 30 mins, Voila !

There are all sorts of things you can do with the above mentioned, as well as other kinds of vegs, sauces etc. All it takes is a little bit of imagination. Baked potatoes in their jackets make a nice alternative. Though do take a while longer to cook. You can be even more adventurous still and either pickle or freeze some of the vegetables. The posibilites are endless, and best of all this food is nutrient rich, pure, filling, and very, very cheap indeed ! For sweets, try saltanas or dried apricots, delicious !

One thing I must caution - Never Microwave - This is one mistake I have never made, and do not intend to. Microwaving is deadly to the immune system - the * core * protector of your health. So steer well clear of this method of cooking.

If you wish to indulge yourself in the somewhat dubious practice ( I am vegetarian ) of eating chicken then do so, but no more than once a week. Preserve your cash. Meat once a week was o.k for your grandparents, so why not for you ? The ethical choice is yours to make of course. It is a free society, at least, should be. But simply from a health perspective alone, nutrients from fruit and vegetables are far more readily absorbed and , therefore, useable to the human system.

There is no physiological need to eat chicken, or for that matter, any kind of meat. However, if you wish to, do first ensure your feathered friend has been* truly free roaming * or you will end up with the low energy vibrations of fear and despair from the bird coursing through your own bloodstream. Along with, of course, the more obvious, but no less destructive, steroids and chemical poisons associated with unsrupulous and unethical factory farming methods. Also do not forget to use the leftovers from your free roamer for chicken soup, which will make your pound stretch even further still.

Follow the strategy of mainly vegetables and no unhealthy snacks, and even though you were the poorest of the poor, you will be able to dine, ORGANICALLY, all year round..

If you are a parent on low income, it is your absolute DUTY to ensure your children grow up strong and healthy. You have no excuse whatsoever to continue pouring genetically altered and destructive organisms into the formative cells of their immune systems. There can never be any justification to continue to dumb down their brains by offering up meals, devoid of nourishment and laced with additives and chemicals. A cocktail , incidently, designed * specifically * for the purpose of keeping you and yours weak, dazed, and in chains.

If I offer to give to you, Free of charge, a large crate filled with bottles of lemonade. The contents of which I have first laced liberally with rats poison, Will you give this to your little ones to drink ? Even if I throw in a free DVD player and a squeaky toy, Interested ? I think not .

Gentically altered, processed, adulterated, denatured, fiercly sprayed produce is no healthier than rats poison. It is simply slower acting in its effect. Give up your car, if you cannot afford to run it, before EVER compomising on your children's health and intellect. Stop smoking ( cause of lung cancer ) Throw away your mobile phone ( cause of brain tumour ) Give up TV, Learn to talk to your children instead. Place the money left over each week, into a savings account, and watch the interest grow.

If you are a drinker, go to the pub once a week, instead of the daily mindless addictive guzzle. Forgo the obligatory pub for a while, and spend time with your familly instead. Drink less ! It is not the end of the world. Much to the contrary, this small change to your routine will usher in a richer, happier, more productive environment for you, your familly, and all at large to enjoy. Quite aside from the fact that alcohol rapidly kills off the brain cells and causes the very serious condition of cirrhosis of the liver. Your consistant over imbibing pulls down the frequency of this planet which is struggling to rise out of the grip of its oppressors.

Let there be an end to the pools of vomit you leave splattered on the streets for the babies to fall into. An end to the general air of violence and oppression which you perpetuate. An end to the constant danger which you pose on the roads through your erratic, inTOXICated , driving. Let there be an END to the abuse that many, many wives, as well as children, have to endure due to your pleasure to frequently imbibe. As I have already stated, - The Power - is in the hands of the people. IF, you will Stand TALL, Take back your world, take back your DIGNITY !

Adwindrum comments "Friends joke to me that rare breeds are rare for a reason, meaning they taste bad, are hard to look after and arent economic. Its only the last reason that is true, and that needs to change."

Adwindrum, Don’t forget that most rear breeds / traditional breeds / ancient breeds, call them what you will, have been superseded by modern types because the modern types produce more, however most of the rear breeds can produce their less on marginal land where the modern breeds will produce nothing. And this is one of their greatest assets. The ability to produce on land that would otherwise be unusable for modern high production types without an unacceptably high level of input means the rear breeds should have their place in the right place on the otherwise unproductive and otherwise unusable marginal lands. The gene stock of the traditional breeds containing the virtues of hardiness and thriftiness and where over generations of breeding breeds eminently suited to particular climes without expensive housing are extremely valuable. Low input - low output is a very worthwhile trait, when all you have is low input i.e. marginal lands that are too expensive to use for the modern high input breeds.
Peter

Dear marktime - they are not buggers, they are reasonably behaved, usually,. Any animal that weighs in excess of 400kgs you have to treat with respect ‘cos if it treads on your toe it hurts. They have not been bread to stupidity but they are not vicious. However they are not a milking breed so they are not used to being handled daily. I, as the person they are used to, can walk among them even when there are new calves, but if a strange dog started worrying the herd especially if new calves are about I would not give too much for the dog’s chances and I would not want to be in there whilst they were sorting the dog out.

But to answer the question - I would not want to de-horn, I am not allowed to de-horn under the organic rules (as unnecessary mutilation) and yes the tourists find them more photogenic with the horns on.

We do however castrate, which is allowed under organic rules, because it prevents inbreeding, prevents fights between the adolescent boys and consequential damage to themselves, and it makes life safer for me because you can not afford to be between two adolescent animals trying to establish who is boss.

Our bull has a brass ball fixed to the end of each horn so that in the event of a fight the horn is less likely to pass between two ribs and cause serious damage. This is a traditional practice.
Peter

Heehee I grew up on jersey cows (only 1) for milk/butter and cream and south devons (3 or 4) for meat and think everyone in cornwall should do too, (instead of the tasteless plastic muck they seem to proud to call Cornish Clotted Cream!).

My Soays specialise in eating scrub in marginal land and are used by the National Trust and the Eden project to clear quarry areas etc. However they still dont make money. In fact the Eden Project had difficulty giving them away when they had finished with them.

A great reason for keeping rare breeds though is that for the smallholder they are a lot easier, they also provide a varied gene bank for the future.

Storm

Could YOU explain the difference to *me* in the physics between heating something with different "frequencies"?

Storm

So you can't explain this simple physic, fair enough.