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Politics: Fracked off ?? Should we be worried about UK fracking

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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Nice one James
  2.  
    >It also follows with "Please cite this report as: Broderick. J., et al: 2011, Shale gas: an updated assessment of environmental and climate change impacts. A report commissioned by The Co-operative and undertaken by researchers at the Tyndall Centre, University of Manchester"

    Indeedy-doody it does. That makes the crucial point that it is not a Tyndall Centre official report with the added authority of the review process, though I'd say they are skating the boundaries in trying to make it sound like one.

    >Do you think this greatly reduce the quality of the information contained within it ?

    That is more interesting.

    I'd say it's axiomatic that lack of peer review greatly increases the *risk* of reduced quality information. If that's not the case then we can solve our science funding crisis by banning peer review and having them do something useful instead with all that wasted time.

    The little bit of the report I read didn't give me 100% reassurance, but I'd say that this is a side-issue in the thread.

    I too like the local nature of fracking, though I note that the first thing that has happened at Balcombe is that the National Campaigners Frack-Off have interfered in the local issue (compare the recent national campaign targetting local politicians with Cumbria and nuclear waste), with their fictitious claims and their criminal damage. At the first demo, iirc there wasn't a single local person arrested.

    Fracking will happen partly because the most public opposition are fools, regardless of the existence of any real problems. If we cut through there may be some problems, but no one is going to find them if they exist.

    Ferdinand
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    I think that the fracking companies should get together with the large wind, PV and nuclear people and say, 'turn this project down and we have another one ready to go'.
    Glad that Damien Hirst has saved one of our current power stations for posterity. I will miss feeding them Ambrosia.
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2013
     
    Fracking consumes huge amounts of water. Here in SE England, this summer we narrowly avoided hosepipe bans. Fracking isn't going to help, is it?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2013
     
    Posted By: rhamduFracking consumes huge amounts of water
    and investment of energy, too, before the return comes.

    Fracking is typical of the new complicated ways of extracting oil, which have only become economic, in fact v profitable in money terms, because all-energy price has tripled (despite recessionary demand restraint) since 2003 in real terms (i.e. on top of inflation), after 150yrs of stasis in real terms, and now compounding even faster.

    So, there's clearly no shortage of oil, given the new techniques, and Money Return on Money Invested is better than ever, given sky-rocketing prices. However, Energy Return on Energy Invested is plummeting, because of the fast-increasing energy that has to be input into the new processes, before the output can be harvested.

    That is the hidden trend that no one has their eye on, and it's unstoppable - there's absolutely no solution in sight. Every new kind of energy - all the Renewables, nuclear, coal with or without CCS, give much lower EROEI than 'easy oil' provided as a one-off bonanza, upon which all the assumptions of western industrialised civilisation is based. As EROEI continues to decline, so will the westernised world - inescapable.

    This is the new face of Peak Oil, which isn't happening as predicted, but it turns out that Peak EROEI (long past) is much more to the point. Transition, Permaculture, Localisation - is GBF ready for the new reality?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomis GBF ready for the new reality?
    I am, considering getting gas installed :rolling:

    There is a part in that COOP report about how much water (and other things) are used.
    It may sound a lot, but it is not really.
    Table 2.4
  7.  
    "For all fracturing operations carried out on a six well pad, a total of 54,000- 174,000m3 (54-174megalitres) of water would be required for a first hydraulic fracturing procedure and, with chemical additives of up to 2% by volume, some 1,000-3,500m3 of chemicals (or 1,000-3,500tonnes based on relative density of one).
    As such, large quantities of water and chemical additives must be brought to and stored on site. Local conditions dictate the source of water and operators may abstract water directly from surface or ground water sources themselves or may be delivered by tanker truck or pipeline."
    http://www.co-operative.coop/Corporate/Fracking/1/Shale%20gas%20update%20-%20full%20report.pdf
    54,000m3 ? not a lot
    Queen mother reservoir 31,492,000m3 capacity
    But 2% additives sounds a bit to cart about
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2013
     
    I used this, makes it a bit less.

    But as a comparison, this is what Ford are claiming to save.
    http://www.treehugger.com/cars/ford-targets-30-reduction-water-usage-car-2015.html
  9.  
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUTSf91BJYE

    Possible links between land contamination and gas extraction in Germany
  10.  
    "For all fracturing operations carried out on a six well pad, a total of 54,000- 174,000m3 (54-174megalitres) of water would be required for a first hydraulic fracturing procedure and, with chemical additives of up to 2% by volume, some 1,000-3,500m3 of chemicals (or 1,000-3,500tonnes based on relative density of one).
    As such, large quantities of water and chemical additives must be brought to and stored on site. Local conditions dictate the source of water and operators may abstract water directly from surface or ground water sources themselves or may be delivered by tanker truck or pipeline."
    http://www.co-operative.coop/Corporate/Fracking/1/Shale%20gas%20update%20-%20full%20report.pdf

    To put this in further context, 54,000 m3 of water is the amount that leaks out of the water pipes of Southern Water every 12 hours or so. And they are very small and very efficient.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17622837

    And this is 6 wells, not one. Thames Water leaks that quantity every 5 hours.

    Ferdinand
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2013 edited
     
    This is just for "for a first hydraulic fracturing procedure" - so how many 'procedures' to follow in due course at each well? And how many "6-well pads" requiring the same? Very many, it seems, based on the govt's "we're' saved - again" expectation of another N Sea-like bonanza (but this time on land).

    So how many additional Southern Waters can UK's water-strapped infrastructure supply, bearing in mind that we're told there's no chance that this poisoned slush will ever reappear later, for 're-use', in our aquifers (no, it'll just disappear forever, into a parallel universe).

    The Co-op Report gives the lie to the claim that 'just a little bit more water waste' is negligible.
  12.  
    It's ironic united utilities are struggling to keep our reservoir for Bolton within drinking water limits yet they can find water for fracking.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2013
     
    fostertom,

    whilst your list of things to spend donations on is very admirable it does not seem to contain compensation for the farmer on which the protestors have illegally camped for loss of revenue, clearing up the mess they leave behind and cost of work to repair the habitat damage inflicted by them:cry:

    Jonti
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2013
     
    Bah
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2013
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: fostertom</cite>Bah</blockquote>

    :bigsmile:

    I kind of agree with what they are protesting about but many of the protestors seem to think that what they are protesting about gives them the right to act in an equally bad manner.

    Jonti
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2013
     
    It's war, baby - love as well - all's fair in ...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2013
     
    An un-savvy friend, who'd never heard of it, now keeps calling it 'frackery'. I like that.

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