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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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Politics: Review of Green Energy Taxes

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    Posted By: JustinNo, it probably isn't worth it for cooking only. Especially now since the £105 PA hike in prices.

    Even running a boiler some of the time and being frugal in a fairly efficient house is a poor deal compared to what the polluters" get. For me my gas effectively cost 60% more per unit than the price paid by "Mr Average" (Mr average lives in medium sized house and used 20300 KWH a yearhttp://bit.ly/KSdfzn" rel="nofollow" >http://bit.ly/KSdfzn).

    If I had a heat pump, I'd probably dump the gas for cooking, yes.


    I wonder what a "medium" house looks like.

    Ours is just under 200sqm. Medium or large?

    Our 2 month Mid Oct > Mid Dec bill or all electricity and gas was £180. Pricey? That was before we swapped to a fixed tariff, which will save around 12%.

    F
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: ferdinand2000The huge fly in that ointment is that Stamp Duty is paid by the buyer
    I like the idea of linking stamp duty and an EPC. It puts a price on the inefficient building to a certain extent. The buyer can then decide if they should make an offer to take this into account.
    The biggest problem I see is that there would be no obligation to actually do any work. It would also hit smaller houses hardest, opening up the debate about keeping poor people poor. Though that is relative.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: ferdinand2000I wonder if an appropriate way to link costs for green insulation etc to the pocket of the householder would be to tier Stamp Duty according to EPC figure. The huge fly in that ointment is that Stamp Duty is paid by the buyer.
    That EPCs don't work for seriously efficient houses is also quite a big fly.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    Ed, Why don't they?:wink:
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    My understanding is that the main problem is that they don't take the thermal mass of a house into account. Haven't looked into the matter in much detail though.

    http://www.hockertonhousingproject.org.uk/2012/11/new-energy-efficiency-strategy-and-the-risk-to-innovation/

    (OK, that's about SAP but EPCs are sort-of watered down SAP, aren't they?)

    http://passivebuild.co.uk/diary/index.php?entry=4

    Taxing on that basis would be adding injury to insult.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    EPCs are produced by SAP , for a 'new build', or reduced-data SAP (RdSAP) for existing dwellings.
    RdSAP is a stripped down version, it uses so many defaults, it is a very broad brush, if you get my drift?:surprised:
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    Ed, I have read the HHP article, it is largely correct, but slightly off.

    Cheers:smile:
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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    Would it make much difference as thermal mass don't in the UK :wink:
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    Daryl and Steamy, the HHP houses work, largely, whereas the EPCs appear to indicate they don't. I think there's little doubt that the thermal mass plays a large part (though how “interseasonal” it is is a separate discussion).
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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesI think there's little doubt that the thermal mass plays a large part
    I did a lot of reading up on this 6 years ago, there was very little UK research and even less data (most was from the US and more about keeping cool). I was always hoping that thermal mass would help, but could find no evidence in the literature. There were way too many variables that were effecting the outcomes and I did not read one report that had anything but temperatures in it. So no account for varying (or not) solar gain. I was really disappointed.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2014 edited
     
    Yes, the use of thermal mass in the UK is pretty poorly documented (which is probably part of why it's not well accounted for by SAP) but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a huge effect. I don't think anybody would seriously suggest that the Hockerton houses would keep a temperature of 17 °C across a run of cloudy days in February if they were thermally lightweight (e.g., if the concrete and insulation at the back were inside out).
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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014 edited
     
    17°C is probably not far off what my place will stay at in February if I did not heat it (usually about 3 to 4°C above ambient).
    Probably more the occupancy/volume ratio and what other electrical equipment is in there.

    This is some temps from my unheated (mainly) back bedroom. I shall try and get the relevant ambient temperatures later. Red line is the mean over the period
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea(usually about 3 to 4°C above ambient).
    3 to 4 °C above ambient isn't fun after a week of freezing temperatures. The Hockerton houses do a _lot_ better than that.

    (BTW, I'm not that much of a fan of HHP: I don't think 17 °C is a success (I'd want at least 19 °C as a minimum and a bit warmer for most of the time - pretty much a requirement if I want to concentrate sitting still) and I'm not convinced that their solar collection is that good but they do at least indicate that 0 kWh/(m²·a) is within reach.)
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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    We very rarely have temperatures below 5°C in the UK, but I agree that I would want a higher temp if possible, just don't think it is the thermal mass that is raising the temp.
    Nice 'spring morning' now and my kitchen, with the window open has risen to 23°C, this is after grilling some bacon, toast and scrambled eggs (got a bet on with my lodger that I will put on as much weight as she looses, trying to loose this one).
    So I still think that is is the other inputs that are heating the place and not the bricks, they, at best, stabilise the temperature only.
    Happy to be proved wrong as I was once a fan of thermal mass, now a fan of a fan heater (and Miley Cyrus of course, as she knows a bit about demolishing high mass buildings).
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea: “We very rarely have temperatures below 5°C in the UK”

    Maybe that's true in your part of the UK but that is a bit special, isn't it? :wink: Here's a histogram of central England daily average temperatures for January:

    http://cet365.wordpress.com/2014/01/09/plot-number-9/

    “The mean temperature during the later years is 3.9 degrees, compared to 2.85 degrees for the earlier period.”

    Seems the daily average is below 5 °C more often than not for January. Nights will be colder still on average, I expect.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Rather than hijack this thread, I have started a new one:
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11624

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