Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:34:35 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212687#Comment_212687 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212687#Comment_212687 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 15:58:19 +0000 atomicbisf
Can this number be trusted at all?

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212689#Comment_212689 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212689#Comment_212689 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:10:05 +0000 Gotanewlife http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212690#Comment_212690 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212690#Comment_212690 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:11:42 +0000 DarylP
It depends on many factors.... not least when the assessments were done. rdSAP has evolved, on the back of SAP, over the years.

However, if yours is a BISF house, as your neighbour's, I would suggest that your neighbour's is wrong.
Very few DEAs would recognise a BISF house, or know how to input it to the rdSAP s/w....

At least you know the score...]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212691#Comment_212691 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212691#Comment_212691 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:12:20 +0000 Mikel http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212694#Comment_212694 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212694#Comment_212694 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:25:22 +0000 atomicbisf
The assessor was actually much better than I expected and wanted me to show him photos of the wall insulation as evidence and did adapt the report based on what I told him I was going to DIY.

On the EPCs itself it just says for walls "system built, as built, no insulation (assumed)" one out of 5 stars/"system built, as built, no insulation (assumed)" four out of 5 stars for me (as some walls have IWI and some don't. On the other EPC it says ""system built, as built, no insulation (assumed)" one out of 5 stars, so I'm not sure if it depends on any knowledge of the construction apart from it being system-built.

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212697#Comment_212697 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212697#Comment_212697 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:46:15 +0000 DarylP

Any future DIY works cannot be included in the EPC. It is a reflection of the dwelling as assessed.
It sounds like the DEA accepted what had been done, and included the extra insulation in at least some of your external walls?

However there are still differences between the data for your EPC compared to your neighbour....

Cheers ]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212698#Comment_212698 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212698#Comment_212698 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:47:30 +0000 atomicbisf
Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212702#Comment_212702 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212702#Comment_212702 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:57:15 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: DarylPatomicbisf,


Any future DIY works cannot be included in the EPC. It is a reflection of the dwelling as assessed.
It sounds like the DEA accepted what had been done, and included the extra insulation in at least some of your external walls?

However there are still differences between the data for your EPC compared to your neighbour....

Cheershttp:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/smile.gif" alt="" title="" >

Ah yes, I mean he has taken into account I will be doing the insulation myself and so has not listed it as a recommended measure. I'm not sure how he has scored the walls to reflect that about 30% has been IWIed and 70% is still original as it just lists that there are both.

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212707#Comment_212707 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212707#Comment_212707 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 17:37:07 +0000 SteamyTea
House A: D 66 (end terrace)
House B: D 67 (mid terrace)
House C: C 76 (mid terrace)
House D: D 59 (end terrace)
House E: D 62 (end terrace)

They are all the same size though the EPC does not reflect this

House A: 56m^2
House B: 95m^2
House C: 54m^2
House D: 57m^2
House E: 79m^2

The kWh/year is also different

House A: 4995 (space), 1793 (DHW)
House B: ND,ND, 27455 (estimated from EPC figures of 289kWh/m^2)
House C: 2756 (space), 1860 (DHW)
House D: ND,ND 27022 (estimated from EPC figures of 458kWh.m^2)
House E: 6920 (space), 2222 (DHW)

Just a lot of inaccurate nonsense.
Rubbish in, rubbish out.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212708#Comment_212708 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212708#Comment_212708 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 17:40:50 +0000 skyewright Posted By: atomicbisfSorry, I think I've overlooked the obvious! The house in question has solar PV, but this is not listed on the EPC.
I think you are probably right. I was just about to ask if there was any PV involved.

We had a GDA today. The assessor definitely considered our PV as relevant - among other things he took a pic of MCS certificate, the GTI and the panels themselves.

It's a 1970 built house that was un-improved when we arrived & all the insulation has been DIY'd using a variety of materials so given some of what I'd read on forums I was a bit unsure what he'd be able to count. Fortunately he was able to get his digi camera into enough voids to get pics that he seemed to feel were sufficient evidence.

It will be very interesting to see how the figures come out.

I presume that being "all electric" will drag our rating down, but doing something about that is part of the idea in getting the GDA in the first place (GSHP being the idea we are most interested in)...]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212711#Comment_212711 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212711#Comment_212711 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 17:56:16 +0000 atomicbisf
The report does illustrate one of the big problems with the Green Deal though in that if you are a relatively low user of energy the savings to be made are not much.

For example they have worked on 6040 kWh of space heating and 2131 kWh of hot water per year, giving an annual saving of £55 for installing a condensing boiler...

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212716#Comment_212716 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212716#Comment_212716 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 18:58:14 +0000 jamesingram http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212720#Comment_212720 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212720#Comment_212720 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 19:13:00 +0000 Jeff B http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212722#Comment_212722 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212722#Comment_212722 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 19:17:04 +0000 DarylP SAP uses tested values, not what manufacturers want you to think!

Look at http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/ for the tested values used in SAP calcs and EPCs.

Cheers]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212724#Comment_212724 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212724#Comment_212724 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 19:53:35 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: Jeff Batomicbisf - you don't have a wood pellet boiler do you by chance? I only ask because we have one and we have a farcical situation here because all wood pellet boilers are given a "generic" efficiency value which I understand is way below the actual, about 60% I believe (ours is 93%). Hence our house has a lowly D rating despite being insulated to the hilt and an A-rated CO2 emission figure (99%). I could get a better EPC rating if I went back to oil! It's all to do with SAP apparently and I have written to the B.R.E. to ask why the respective boiler databases are not coordinated.

No, no wood pellet boiler or anything like that, just an antiquated gas back boiler. The house was originally heated with some sort of coal stove and early convection central heating system with a coal store in the out house.

I should add that along with the EPC the assessor did an occupancy assessment that used my actual electricity and gas usage and it is the savings on the latter that the Green Deal savings are worked out on. The EPC assumes an average heating temperature and length of heating etc so you can compare homes, which might be quite different from the actual usage.

It's all rather academic as it seems the only practical impact is on solar PV FITs, and I think the solar itself would have raised the rating from the original band E to band D anyway!

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212725#Comment_212725 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212725#Comment_212725 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 19:59:37 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: GotanewlifeWhat do you expect if you call your house 'Widdershins'!

Whose house is called Widdershins? I was trying to think of a name, maybe that will stick ;)]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212726#Comment_212726 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212726#Comment_212726 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 20:12:53 +0000 Nick Parsons http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212736#Comment_212736 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212736#Comment_212736 Thu, 06 Nov 2014 23:11:42 +0000 Gotanewlife http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212739#Comment_212739 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212739#Comment_212739 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 00:20:22 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: DarylPThey are... but your wood pellet boiler has (probably) not been tested to BS ?
SAP uses tested values, not what manufacturers want you to think!

Look athttp://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/" >http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/for the tested values used in SAP calcs and EPCs.

Cheers" alt="" src="http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/smile.gif" >




Our boiler is on the MCS approved list though (wouldn't have qualified for RHI if it wasn't). Presumably MCS required some actual data from the manufacturer?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212740#Comment_212740 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212740#Comment_212740 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 07:05:33 +0000 DarylP
MCS approval is not testing. RHI is based on your EPC, which uses the tested data, or 65% if not tested.
However, for RHI you benefit from a 'poor' EPC..... as the RHI is based on deemed energy consumption! ]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212758#Comment_212758 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212758#Comment_212758 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:51:12 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: DarylPJeffB,

MCS approval is not testing. RHI is based on your EPC, which uses the tested data, or 65% if not tested.
However, for RHI you benefit from a 'poor' EPC....." alt="" src="http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/confused.gif" >as the RHI is based on deemed energy consumption!" alt="" src="http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cry.gif" >

Daryl - that's the irony of the situation though. By insulating the house well (in addition to cavity wall insulation and 270 mm in the loft which was already in place), we have reduced our heating demand by about one-third, down from 21,000 kWh to 14,000 kWh per annum. OK I know that's not exactly Passihaus standard but considering we have a detached 4 bed dormer bungalow in an exposed hilltop, windy situation, not too bad I think. Had we not done this work then we would have been paid quite a lot more under the RHI scheme!

But to me that is not the point. I am rather proud of the fact that not only have we reduced our heating requirement we have also slashed our carbon footprint and yet we are "rewarded" with a D rating on our EPC. If I was house hunting I would not even bother to look at a property with a D rating. There is something inherently wrong here. I will await a response from the B.R.E.

I understand what you say about the MCS approval and yet MCS will declare certain products as ineligible if they don't meet the relevant standards, so surely my boiler must have satisfied some standard to be on the approved list?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212761#Comment_212761 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212761#Comment_212761 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 11:03:09 +0000 Sigaldry https://www.epcregister.com/epcadviser.html and you can find out what your calculations are based on / how they could be improved.

Doesn't seem to work for new build ones though.

A lot of the DEA / RDSAP stuff will be based on generic look-up tables based on observable things and the age of the property - but assessors can overide if they have sufficient proof of actual performance.

Heating systems and controls can make quite a difference as well between two otherwise very similar dwelling...

Equally with the knock down, cheap rate that assessors get for RDSAP /DEA work, I wouldn't particularly be surprised if the quality of their work might be a bit lacking.

I've had 'panel' companies trying to get me to do EPC's for existing dwellings 60 miles away from where I live for the princely sum of £30.00, to cover my time, travel expenses, insurances etc and everything else - now that's at least an hours drive each way, plus survey time / getting it produced - really not worth it.

(Glad I'm not a DEA - no idea how they make a living - I suspect by cutting all the corners they can)


Sigaldry]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212768#Comment_212768 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212768#Comment_212768 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 11:20:51 +0000 Greenfish
Because we had a wood burner rather than a gas combi, and the pathetic and inaccurate generic efficiency the procedure imposes, we just missed an "A". Lots of insulation, air tight, PV etc. the only thing that we could "improve" was to add a gas boiler, which is impossible given the lack of gas supply for mile. Whole thing is a crock, can we use crow method in future?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212772#Comment_212772 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212772#Comment_212772 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:10:33 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: SigaldryIf you know the ratings, presumably you know the RRN (reference number). In which case, go to:https://www.epcregister.com/epcadviser.html" rel="nofollow" >https://www.epcregister.com/epcadviser.htmland you can find out what your calculations are based on / how they could be improved.

Doesn't seem to work for new build ones though.

A lot of the DEA / RDSAP stuff will be based on generic look-up tables based on observable things and the age of the property - but assessors can overide if they have sufficient proof of actual performance.

Heating systems and controls can make quite a difference as well between two otherwise very similar dwelling...

Equally with the knock down, cheap rate that assessors get for RDSAP /DEA work, I wouldn't particularly be surprised if the quality of their work might be a bit lacking.

I've had 'panel' companies trying to get me to do EPC's for existing dwellings 60 miles away from where I live for the princely sum of £30.00, to cover my time, travel expenses, insurances etc and everything else - now that's at least an hours drive each way, plus survey time / getting it produced - really not worth it.

(Glad I'm not a DEA - no idea how they make a living - I suspect by cutting all the corners they can)


Sigaldry

Hi, I had a look but couldn't see anything about the calculations. My reference number is 8795-4939-7029-3026-0043 if you're interested. It did give the option though to add various measures and see what the resulting (cumulative) score will be:

Topping up the loft insulation from 100 mm to 250 mm (in reality this is basically done, I just had some of the top layer up up while putting boards down when he happened to come round) - no change at D57

Condensing gas boiler - D66

Condensing gas boiler with flue heat recovery - D67

Solar PV 3.8 kW - B82

As a comparison a BISF house nearby with EWI and condensing boiler is C74, ref no. 8657-7721-1020-9312-2902

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212773#Comment_212773 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212773#Comment_212773 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:24:16 +0000 DarylP ]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212775#Comment_212775 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212775#Comment_212775 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:27:27 +0000 DarylP
No, MCS registration/certification is no indication of quality/efficiency... just that the mfrs/importers/distributors have paid up!

If you want tested efficiencies, look for the PCDF values.....]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212776#Comment_212776 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212776#Comment_212776 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:35:37 +0000 atomicbisf Posted By: DarylP8 Shaws Way has "external insulation".... hence the improved EE rating....http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt="" title="" >

Sorry, that was just an example of a similar home with various upgrade measures. The one originally in question is 8795-4939-7029-3026-0043 (35 Freeview Road). Turns out the solar PV is listed, I just missed it because it's listed separately!

But there's still a bit of a mystery, because if I take off the 15 points for 3.8 kW of solar PV it takes them to D61, which is still higher than me even though their walls are worse, their loft insulation is worse, floor is the same, windows are worse, main heating is the same, heating controls are worse, hot water is the same and lighting is worse!

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212779#Comment_212779 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212779#Comment_212779 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 13:06:56 +0000 Nick Parsons
How many channels can it get?

and...

''Turns out the solar PV is listed''.....


Well, it had to happen sometime. Will you have to apply for LB consent every time you want to re-paint your panels? ]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212780#Comment_212780 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212780#Comment_212780 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 13:33:04 +0000 atomicbisf
Rather ironically, Freeview reception at Freeview Road and in most of Bath is poor as the hill to the south blocks the main transitter on the Mendips. The local explanation is that it refers to the free view of Bath City FC that could be had before the newest houses were built, but that sounds like a folk etymology to me and I think the boring explanation of the panoramic view across the Avon Valley to the north is more likely.

Ed]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212781#Comment_212781 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12756&Focus=212781#Comment_212781 Fri, 07 Nov 2014 14:24:43 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: DarylPJeffB,

No, MCS registration/certification is no indication of quality/efficiency... just that the mfrs/importers/distributors have paid up!

If you want tested efficiencies, look for the PCDF values....." alt="" src="http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/smile.gif" >

DarylP: What about those products that are deemed ineligible then - presumably these manufacturers have "paid up" too otherwise why would MCS be involved with their equipment in the first place. What criteria are MCS using to disqualify the equipment?

Where can I find PCDF values please?

Jeff]]>