I cannot grasp why a certain section of the intellengensia cannot grasp that one simply cannot make all of us equal, especially in terms of wealth, there are those among us, guessing 10% to 15 % , perhaps as many as 20% of the population who are simply feckless.
One could not increase their living standards even if bringing them money in barrowfuls, they would and do choose to piss it up agains a wall in so many creative forms.
Yet these Socialist minded folks always want to level down, i.e. give us your money, ( cos hey your lucky you got money.......how one "got" the money, i.e. ones diligence, thrift & accumen is never considered), to spend on these poor people, who despite all efforts WILL STILL ALWAYS be poor, or still make poor life decisions anyway.
A certain %age really require to be housed and fed 3 meals a day.
Tough but true.
My wifes step grandfather was a foreman mechanic in Greenock, he, way back 30? year ago was according to the wife still living in a rented Council house, despite clearing £300.00 per week, an absolute fortune, however cars caravans, beer and holidays seen it spent, then they complained about the poor state pension.
This is repeated ad infinitum.
Ditto the "no child of mine is going to a Grammer School" mindset.
And from a totally non religious person, to quote someone who was...."the poor(er) will always be with us"
Purely due to their inability to look after money, no matter how much they are given, they will simply adjust their short term consumer expections ever upwards.
Rant over.
For now.

Quite right seanie. Can't believe the argument is already heading off into familiar 'can't make people equal' 'levelling down' territory.

There's an unsuspected factual, revolutionising point in this, which the 'haves' (and their aspiring supporters) will immediately divert attention from.

orangemannot...

I agree, the feckless will always be with us, but a good proportion of your 10 - 15 - 20% aren't born feckless - they're just unlucky to be born into a culture that can't see beyond the next bottle of Buckfast.
There, but for the grace of God, go you and I both.

Give most kids a chance to see a different way of life where they don't have to be cold, hungry, hungover, and in constant fear of violence - they'll jump at it. That's what we try to do with education and social services.
I can rant with the best of you about useless teachers and lazy social workers, but I'll vote every time for the principle of using our common resources to help people break out of the poverty culture.

You and I are enjoying material luxury that our great-grandparents would not have believed was possible.
Allowing the feckless to share some of that bounty isn't much of a hardship.
What's the alternative? Let everyone fend for themselves?

As for the Greenock mechanic of 30 years ago, he's just the sort of man we want right now. If everyone worked steadily, paid taxes, lived in a rented house and spent most of their wages every week our economy would be booming. It's the fatuous pursuit of accumulated wealth that's dumped us in the cac.

Yes some bankers are way overpaid, but so are most Union bosses?
And yes the golden parachute only applies to those at high level.
And most of the bonuses are obsecene, and its a one way street, lose the banks money = merely no bonus
And yes it is all very wrong.
But, back to the old nature /nuture debate, as alluded to above.
Why do so many people demand a pedegree pup?, because they will exhibit traits true to their breed.
Plus its now a fairly well recognised excuse for some peoples behaviour, "its not their fault, they have a genetic predisposition to substance/alcohol abuse"
So why not a genetic predisposition to fecklessness?
Seems reasonable.
PS
I know farming familys working their way down, enviously saying of those who are working their way up......its all right for them...they always had money.
Quite wrong if you knew both families concerned, as I do.
PPS
I am a Local Government officer at the dizzy SO1 salary level (& slowly worked up to that) with a retired teacher as a wife.
And depending on our current Review of Public Adminsteration could be made redundant,& I do not expect a golden parachute if this happens, though it would be very nice.
So we are not "rolling in income"
But hey, we manage.
That is all

Posted By: marktime.
"At some point someone gave you a chance, a bit of encouragement perhaps or you had a role model that you looked up to."

Maybe not, maybe orangemannot just had a dream, got off his backside and did something. Which would be a Nature not Nurture thing no?

"I suspect that there are feckless at every level of society."

But the rich and feckless are just blowing their own, or their hapless parents, resources, Whats the old saying, One generation to make the money, one generation to consolidate it, and the third to squander it.

PS
I got a very crap Secondary Modern = Comprehensive education too folks, no silver spoon here.
Then der Polytechnic.
Marktime, why do you pretend that it is an artifical identification? the them & us one.
I certainly do not identify with bankers, (which is why we never took a mortgage), or even the Rotary club circuit,
however I also have zero shared values with the Pikey culture, (for one) Or the football culture for another.
And btw, they, the Pikeys have very clearly identified them & us identified values too.
Then, what newspapers do you read Marktime?,
The Guardian perhaps? , purely a guess, you know that old pigeonholing thing.
Because I cannot think of any that do not have some (at least ) percieved slant or bias, it is all shades of grey.
The more intelligent should stand a better chance of seeing the bias, but many apparently dont..
PPS
I keep saying , descrimination is a good thing, else why do most people who can afford it (and plenty who cant) drive a "good car" i.e BMW, Mercedes or Audi, that is pure descrimination at work.
And lastly Fostertom,I do not blame underdogs , merely the blatently wantonly feckless, and there is a distinct difference.

Perhaps "the sins of the fathers" are truly "visited upon their children and their children's children, etc."Tom although less esoterically than you suggest. It must take a stout heart to lift yourself out of a family of second- generation benefit dependants.

Can you not see orange mannot that the great danger of labelling people, of creating false dichotomies, is that it allows you diminish their status and thus facilitates their persecution? Instead of going after presumed benefit cheats, why not look at the system that allows cheating to take place? Instead of criticising the teenage mother, why not look at how teen pregnancy is encouraged? But investigation takes effort whilst pointing fingers is easy, and let's not forget, comes with a frisson of "righteousness".

As for the people who drive a "good" car, in the main that's just conspicuous consumption: "my toggle and two is bigger than yours" .