Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2021
     
    I have recently moved into an 1800s house with solid brick built ground floor and a timber stud frame first floor walls that are tile hung.

    The lath and plaster is blown in places and I have done some initial investigations and the current structure appears to be as follows (from the outside) - Tiles, bitumen felt, mineral wool, lath and plaster, skim coat. The studs are 140mm deep.

    The tiles are in good order and so removing them to replace the bitumen felt, etc. would be costly prohibitive so I was planning to tackle this from the inside. My plan at this stage is to remove the lath and plaster, fix timber stop battens, install 90mm Kooltherm K112 (or similar) to leave a 50mm air gap to the felt/tiles and cover with insulated plasterboard with an integrated VCL.

    Does this sound like a sensible solution or am I potentially introducing issues with the timber structure? Is there a better/more cost effective way to do it?
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2021 edited
     
    Here are a couple of pictures to give an idea of existing:

    Structure - https://ibb.co/8cTjDG2

    Insulation - https://ibb.co/d4Bv6tv
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2021
     
    There is no need to leave an air gap between the felt and the insulation for a wall, why it is different for a roof mystifies me.

    I would fully fill the void with quilt, tricky to well with sheet insulation then add a nice thickness of sheet insulation, an airtightness layer and plasterboard linings inside that. All joined up to roof/ceiling insulation, and down i between the floor void to downstairs.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2021
     
    Thanks for the response.

    Is there a particular quilt that you would recommend? Should I look for a breathable option?
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2022
     
    Finally getting round to this job and have opted for thermafleece to fill the voids between the studs and then attaching a VCL to the studs.

    I've received conflicting advice as to whether I then need to i) batten the studs before fixing plasterboard or ii) fix plasterboard straight to studs.

    Thoughts/experience welcome.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2022
     
    If it was me doing it, I would pack the studs off the wall with packers possibly short lengths of plastic pipe at 800cc fixings insulation in all voids. Vapour barrier and plasterboard.

    I don’t like using sheeps wool, too expensive and there have been problems with moths and other insects as treatment seems patchy and once in they are a big problem. Inorganic best , my choice R32 fibreglass batts
  1.  
    Is there anything wrong with the mineral wool that is currently between the studs ?

    If not and the thickness is acceptable then I would be inclined to leave the lath and plaster alone and attach the insulated plasterboard through the lath and plaster to the studs.

    Removing lath and plaster is a time consuming and VERY messy. If you can get away with leaving it in situ that would be my choice.

    Whether you need to batten the studs first would depend on the spacing of the studs
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2022
     
    @tony - I was going for sheepswool because of the breathability and wanted to minimise the risk of condensation issues. Is there an inorganic product that's comparable?

    @Peter_in_Hungary - the studs are 11" apart. The advice I received on the battens was to leave an air gap between the insulation and the VCL? As I say, another company said this wasn't necessary.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2022
     
    If you have a vcl then no need for breathable. 50mm gap seems excessive, no gap needed for walls 12mm would be my maximum.

    I would use 80mm insulated plasterboard, cheap in comparison to upgrading at some future point in time
  2.  
    @michaelf - Do you know how much mineral wool exists between the studs and as important what is its condition. Without knowing this you won't know what to plan for the target upgrade u values for the wall.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2022
     
    As far as I can tell, the existing mineral wool may as well not be there. It's very loose and the first picture shows the amount of space left in the void (140mm studs). The second picture shows thickness compared to a lath.

    https://ibb.co/nRH3Lbc
    https://ibb.co/qrZVHbw

    Not sure when the previous installation was put in but another reason to remove lath and plaster is to check that all is well behind. Regardless, I assume by filling the voids we will have a much better insulated house.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2022
     
    Messy as removing the lath and plaster will be, theres no point in leaving it as those studs need insulating properly.

    When stripping the plaster get yourself a high volume extractor and have it pulling the air out of the room through a cutout in a boarded window opening. Weve got a 50-60 m3/min extractor while we're working in one end of an open plan living area and its keeping the dust out of everywhere except the immeadiate work area.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2022
     
    @philedge thanks for the tip on the dust extraction

    @tony - so if I went for sheeps wool, does that mean I don't need a VCL - or is a belt and braces approach best...?
  3.  
    If the wall is to be breathable, it has to be breathable all the way through, including the felt on the outside and the insulated plasterboard. If some parts are breathable and others not breathable, then humidity can permeate into the breathable bits and become trapped.

    One option would be to remove the bitumen felt and replace with a breathable membrane, but that seems excessive as you said. Another option is to use non-degradable materials like glass wool or phenolic boards, with a VCL or foil face on the inside to keep most of the humidity out of them, and at least some ventilated gaps between insulation and felt to allow any remaining humidity or condensation to escape.


    Pro joiners might fix battens across the existing studs, at a metric spacing to suit modern plasterboard and collated screws. If you are DIYing you might have more time to trim each plasterboard to fit the 19thC stud spacings. We tried both ways, swings/roundabouts, but keep at it the results will be worth the effort!
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2022
     
    Having thought about this some more and looked at other options, what are views on using SuperQuilt - this would then leave the voids between the studs open (as they are pretty much are now!). If we ever did then remove the tiles outside we could upgrade insulation from the outside.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2022
     
    Little bit controversial calling it insulation, need 100’s of millimetres of insulation and a target u-value first
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2022
     
    Thanks all for thoughts/opinions so far, I've been left with two options.

    1. Skim > Plasterboard > VCL > 140mm Knauf Frametherm > Bitumenous felt > Battens > Tiles

    2. Skim > Plasterboard > VCL > 100mm Steico Flex > 40mm Cavity > Bitumenous felt > Battens > Tiles

    I've also had a recommendation to place wedges in any felt laps which seems sensible.

    Option 1 - This is my preference from a cost/labour perspective but is there a high risk of condensation forming on the bitumenous felt?

    Option 2 - Costs more but as I understand it the cavity will allow for moisture to escape and significantly reduce the risk of condensation.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2022
     
    No need for ventilation gap in walls. Nicer if you could use thermal board instead of plasterboard in order to mitigate the thermal bridging effect of the studs. With a good vapour barrier there will be very limited vapour to condense, only that in the void, so ensure vapour barrier is well done and joined to adjoining barriers and to windows, doors and ducts.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2022
     
    Thanks Tony - in terms of not requiring ventilation, is that on the assumption that there is a breathable membrane on the outside? It's been suggested that as the felt is not breathable and it will be cold it is therefore more likely for condensation to form?

    Or is the view that there will be very little vapour within the wall that condensation is unlikely to form? I'm based in the South East and the aspects are South/South-West facing if that has any impact.

    In terms of thermal board, do you mean something like this? https://www.insulationuk.co.uk/products/tekwarm-thermal-laminate-hp-2400mm-x-1200mm?variant=41262125646005
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 30th 2022
     
    Yes, re thermal board, I find bitumen felt, especially if it has string in it is never a problem, as string absorbs water and breathes it out to the outside. Regs don’t require a void or ventilation in a wall! Sun will keep it all dry.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2022
     
    Thanks Tony. Would it prudent to coat the timbers with a wood treatment and preservative whilst they're exposed?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 5th 2022
     
    Yes , if wood is below 12 % moisture content, the usual case in a lived in house then it won’t get eaten by woodworm as they can’t digest dry wood, won’t get wet rot either.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2022
     
    Sorry one more query. Leaning towards the insulated plasterboard, is it ok to install the VCL behind this i.e.:

    Skim > 32.5mm insulated plasterboard > VCL > 140mm Frametherm filling studs > Bitumen Felt > Battens > Tiles
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press