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Renewable Energy: Waste wood power plant

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    • CommentAuthorsimeon
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Is this a good idea? It uses recovered wood and a gasification technique.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/12/green-bank-wood-birmingham-power-plant
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Gasification is a good technique, not so sure about the feedstock, there may be better uses for 'waste wood'.

    This did get me thinking about sheepswool as an insulation product, are there not better uses for it.
    All comes down to the definition of waste really.
    • CommentAuthorPigglet
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    There are a number of 'energy from waste' and Biomass burning power generating sets very close to where I work and live.
    The result of their construction has been the rather worrying de-forestation of the hills around our home on the edge of a National park. It now looks like a nuclear war zone.
    These areas near me are NOT being re planted. I fail to see how this is an ecologically friendly way of generating power and a sensible use of the timber???
    The facilities local to me burn both recyled timber from palletts etc but also process cord timber sourced both locally and imported.
    My cynical view is that it's more about getting government grants than actually developing a true green energy source that is comercially viable without heavy subsidisation.
    Surely the gassification process will require heat from some source?
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013 edited
     
    "waste wood" What does this mean?

    A friend of mine runs a plant that was originally going to run on waste wood but the reality now is they use freshly felled cord as the economics worked out better that way.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013 edited
     
    As far as I'm aware the best thing to do with wood, other than leaving it be,is make stuff out of it.
    You'll get some left over bits that aren't much good for anything and you could wood chip it for mulch etc. or you could burn it.
    I think piglets correct re. getting available grants etc. But that's the same with virtually all commercial concerns, it's all about the money.
    Re. forestry timber clearance . I was under the impression this mono culture of spruce etc. wasn't that great
    in ecological terms anyway. Just an efficient way to produce timber for market , and generally in the UK not good enough for much regarding building etc.
    I heard a while back the forestry commission where moving away from this commercial practice and planning to concentrate on broad leaf woodland for increased diversity ?
    I get bits of wood left over from my working activities and as long as it untreated or not painted I burn it for heat.
    I'm not sure this works so well on the larger scale though .
    See the thread 'Biomass a burning issue'
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013 edited
     
    Getting energy from our domestic sewage is a better scheme, wish all the sewage works here did that as the current ones don't seem to stop the browns reaching the beach.
    I would rather see quite a high £/kWh payment for that rather than timber burning.
  7.  
    Would that be done by collecting the methane and burning that ? Is that a problem or could it similar to wood burning re. CO2 , not neutral due to time lag, but better than fossil fuels
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Better than FF as the sequestration is faster (still decades though), but we have to currently process sewage anyway, so not such a giant leap.
  9.  
    yes , lot of opportunity with sewage, suffers from a bit of an image problem though :shocked:

    Wonder what's happening in the world of Urine mining nowadays

    "Urine , is it going to waste"
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=6383&page=1
  10.  
    Looks like another white elephant on its way. Why we dont just get tried and tested technology from the Austrians rather than reinvent the wheel with companies that have never done this before I will never know.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    It rather seems to rely on the incorrect notion that burning wood (or the gas that it produces) is zero carbon. This is not true, the plant will be blasting mega tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere.

    There is no mention of particulates or pollution, where does that all go?
  12.  
    Hear, hear Tony.

    Burning wood is bad, burning waste wood is very bad.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013 edited
     
    They'll build waste wood plant because they will be seen as 'good', then they'll not be able to find a sustainable source of wood so will start burning Solid Recovered Fuel (bin waste to you and me).
  14.  
    As its being built by a specialist sewage treatment company I would speculate it would more likely be sewage sludge they want to dispose of as it is getting more difficult to find places to spread it on land.
  15.  
    Posted By: Chris P BaconHear, hear Tony.
    Burning wood is bad, burning waste wood is very bad.
    So should we just keep burning coal then ?
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11535&page=1#Item_2

    'Coal-fired generation is the biggest single source of carbon dioxide emissions - and more than three-fifths of the rise in global emissions since 2000 is due to coal burning.'
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    James, it is not really a case of one or the other. But if you looked at the contribution that burning timber (waste or not) to generate electricity, then I suspect that it would hardly make a difference over the next 20 years for two reasons:
    It cannot happen instantly, so will have to be phased in over a few years
    The feedstock will become in short supply.

    Much better off developing and fitting CCS if CO2 reduction is the ultimate goal.
    But even better would be to reduce world usage, that should be the easiest and cheapest to do and will probably happen anyway.

    If we want to reduce CO2 and particulate quickly and cheaply, then we can burn Australian gas, we can do that pretty quickly:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10519371/Australia-to-be-an-energy-superpower-by-mid-2017.html
  17.  
    Posted By: jamesingram
    Posted By: Chris P BaconHear, hear Tony.
    Burning wood is bad, burning waste wood is very bad.
    So should we just keep burning coal then ?
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11535&page=1#Item_2

    'Coal-fired generation is the biggest single source of carbon dioxide emissions - and more than three-fifths of the rise in global emissions since 2000 is due to coal burning.'

    Nope and don't stop with coal.

    All burning has a negative environmental impact.

    The target here in Sweden is to eliminate fossil fuels for road transport by 2030, there was a report out last week suggesting that if that target is to be achieved the Government needs to increase the price of petrol and diesel three fold. Will be interesting to see how things develop.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Reduce use of energy is the best course of action.

    use and generate clean energy, tidal, solar, geothermal, not necessarily in that order, even nuclear
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconWill be interesting to see how things develop.
    Yes it will, they going to flood more valleys?
  20.  
    Posted By: SteamyTea
    Posted By: Chris P BaconWill be interesting to see how things develop.
    Yes it will, they going to flood more valleys?

    For general energy consumption the country is well down the road of being totally independent of fossil fuels with Nuclear and Hydro making up the vast majority of the mix. Most of the most recent investment has gone into offshore wind.

    Most "burning" is done by industry, for example the largest glass house producer of tomatoes in Sweden is about 5 miles away from me and they had an open day last year as a forerunner to applying for permission to double the size of their operation which is heated by wood chip. They were peddling the "environmentally friendly, carbon neutral" myth. No mention of all the particulates they are spewing out onto the residential area just across the road from them.

    As for road transport part of the problem is that they don't appear to have a clear road map of how to achieve the goal.

    The government think tank on the subject reported yesterday and they are proposing that all company cars from 2016 onward must have sub 50g/km CO2 emissions, the thinking being that the company car fleet turns over quickly into the general fleet and so can be used to spear head greening the general fleet.

    I don't know when the government is due to rule on this proposal, probably in next years budget.

    The choice of cars in that emissions segment is pretty limited at the moment so I can foresee a lot of lobbying against introducing the rule so quickly but I'd say 2017/18 is a strong possibility.

    Citroën C-Zero
    Chevrolet Volt
    Ford Focus Electric
    Mitsubishi i-MiEV
    Nissan Leaf
    Opel Ampera
    Peugeot ION
    Tesla Roadster
    Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid
    Volvo C30 Electric
    Volvo V60 Plug In Hybrid
    Mitsubishi Outlander Plug-In Hybrid
    Tesla Model S (60 kw)
    BMW i3
    Volkswagen e-up!
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconVolkswagen e-up!
    Should sell well in Yorkshire!!
  22.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Pigglet</cite>There are a number of 'energy from waste' and Biomass burning power generating sets very close to where I work and live.
    The result of their construction has been the rather worrying de-forestation of the hills around our home on the edge of a National park. It now looks like a nuclear war zone.
    These areas near me are NOT being re planted. I fail to see how this is an ecologically friendly way of generating power and a sensible use of the timber???
    </blockquote>

    How long ago was this?

    To fell any reasonable amount of timber you need a license from the Forestry Commission, and it is a usual condition that the timber be replaced.

    "Conditions on a felling licence
    A felling licence will normally include conditions that the felled area must be restocked and the trees maintained for a period not exceeding ten years. The Forestry Commission will discuss any proposed restocking condition with the applicant before a licence is issued. Only in exceptional circumstances will a felling licence be issued to fell trees without subsequent restocking. Such an application will be assessed under the Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) Regulations 1999. A felling licence for thinning woodland will be issued without a restocking condition."

    http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-6DFK86

    If they should be doing it and aren't, perhaps the FC should be told.

    Ferdinand
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: Triassic
    Posted By: Chris P BaconVolkswagen e-up!
    Should sell well in Yorkshire!!


    :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
     
    I've a friend who's invested in a 'to be built' waste to heat plant in Poland, apparently the business model is worked on what they'll get paid to take the waste. The electrical generation side and selling to the grid it is considered an potential extra , nothing more !
    Any one remember the Divine Comedy song about wanting to live in Sweden. Is it me or have those Scandinavians taken the next evolutionary step and left the rest of us behind in the stone (coal) age?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: jamesingramAny one remember the Divine Comedy
    They may meet their Waterloo though :bigsmile:
  26.  
    Uncomfortable silence, followed by tumbleweed rolling across the screen .....
  27.  
    Posted By: jamesingram Is it me or have those Scandinavians taken the next evolutionary step and left the rest of us behind in the stone (coal) age?
    It's not Utopia here by any means!
    Depends on what your opinion of nuclear is for starters!
    And whilst carbon emissions might be amongst the lowest per capita in the EU, energy use is amongst the highest. Some of that might be down to the demands of the cold climate but I'm quite sure there is plenty of room for improvement.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Is Sweden still the largest producer of stainless steel? Heard that from a Swedish woman. She painted a less than rosy picture of her homeland and their environmental stance.
    • CommentAuthorPigglet
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2013
     
    Posted By: ferdinand2000
    Posted By: PiggletThere are a number of 'energy from waste' and Biomass burning power generating sets very close to where I work and live.
    The result of their construction has been the rather worrying de-forestation of the hills around our home on the edge of a National park. It now looks like a nuclear war zone.
    These areas near me are NOT being re planted. I fail to see how this is an ecologically friendly way of generating power and a sensible use of the timber???


    How long ago was this?

    To fell any reasonable amount of timber you need a license from the Forestry Commission, and it is a usual condition that the timber be replaced.

    "Conditions on a felling licence
    A felling licence will normally include conditions that the felled area must be restocked and the trees maintained for a period not exceeding ten years. The Forestry Commission will discuss any proposed restocking condition with the applicant before a licence is issued. Only in exceptional circumstances will a felling licence be issued to fell trees without subsequent restocking. Such an application will be assessed under the Environmental Impact Assessment (Forestry) Regulations 1999. A felling licence for thinning woodland will be issued without a restocking condition."

    http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-6DFK86" rel="nofollow" >http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-6DFK86

    If they should be doing it and aren't, perhaps the FC should be told.

    Ferdinand


    I can't remmeber exactly when they started but it has been going on for at least five years and is still ongoing. The FC are working in the area........
  30.  
    Posted By: SteamyTeaIs Sweden still the largest producer of stainless steel? Heard that from a Swedish woman. She painted a less than rosy picture of her homeland and their environmental stance.

    I don't know anything about the steel industry here which is all based much further north from me but I went to have a look and as you can see from the table attached stainless steel production here is pretty low now even in EU terms never mind the world.

    Hard to find unbiased opinions on what environmental damage the industry does but I did find one recent commentary which stated the the steel industry here still sends 20% of it's waste by products to landfill which seems a lot. How does that compare with the UK steel industry?

    When I was searching I did find this interesting table on the worst air polluters in the EU.

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/nov/24/cost-of-environmental-pollution

    Almost all the Swedish entries on the list are paper/pulp mills the only Swedish energy generation plant on the list is in fact a CHP plant associated with the steel mill in Luleå using waste gas from the plant as it's power source.

    The combined total of all the Swedish entries on the list comes to less than half of DRAX alone.

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