Green Building Forum - Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... Tue, 19 Dec 2023 04:56:36 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291582#Comment_291582 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291582#Comment_291582 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:12:19 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea
I got a text message quote from a local plasterer today for £1700 for the external wall to be rendered in lime putty and sand 23m² + vat and £230 for skimming the plasterboarded hall ceiling.

I've asked for a more detailed quote, asking specific questions, like, what materials will be use, e.g. the above mentioned and his basic method, e.g. thickness, 2 or 3 coats, plus lime finishing skim. Also, whether we need to have the gaps in the brick lime pointed first?

I am expecting him to disappear into the ether, as he's clearly a man of few written words, but he said he's worked on graded buildings and such. Seemed to know lime when he came round. I just can't risk any misunderstandings and leaving materials to chance after all the research I've done.

I was all set to specify Lime Green Ultra but I'm not sure we'd gain much of its famed insulative value, as the data sheet talks of building it out in layers, to around 60mm maybe or more, and we would look at having 20mm plaster thickness (string width 30mm). It's also made up largely of NHL lime and the lime group I'm on on FB is condemning NHL at the moment, as evidence is mounting that it is looking to harden (over time) to similar levels as cerment and not carbonate as well as fatty lime putty for breathability purposes, or the holy grail of hot lime!

As for the gaps around the floor to the sub floor... There are several bricks broken, especially near the front door, with some missing and you can see the outside airbrick with relative ease if you get to floor level.

I bought some rolls of sheep's wool pipe lagging 75mm width and had the idea to push it down into the gaps before fitting skirting. I figured as it's breathable, any moisture that may collect on it, could diffuse down and be dried up via the cross air flow below the floorboards? I'll post a pic...]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291583#Comment_291583 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291583#Comment_291583 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:29:19 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291584#Comment_291584 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291584#Comment_291584 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:29:39 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291585#Comment_291585 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291585#Comment_291585 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:30:16 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291586#Comment_291586 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291586#Comment_291586 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:30:30 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291587#Comment_291587 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291587#Comment_291587 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:32:43 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291588#Comment_291588 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291588#Comment_291588 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:34:56 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291589#Comment_291589 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291589#Comment_291589 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 21:36:26 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291592#Comment_291592 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291592#Comment_291592 Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:06:55 +0100 djh Posted By: BiscuitsAndTeaI've asked for a more detailed quote, asking specific questions, like, what materials will be use, e.g. the above mentioned and his basic method, e.g. thickness, 2 or 3 coats, plus lime finishing skim. Also, whether we need to have the gaps in the brick lime pointed first?

I am expecting him to disappear into the ether, as he's clearly a man of few written words, but he said he's worked on graded buildings and such. Seemed to know lime when he came round. I just can't risk any misunderstandings and leaving materials to chance after all the research I've done.
It seems like you're getting to grips with things quite quickly, which is good. Equally you appreciate the individual motivations of the tradesmen, which is also important. We found cake and tea are also important :bigsmile:

It's also made up largely of NHL lime and the lime group I'm on on FB is condemning NHL at the moment, as evidence is mounting that it is looking to harden (over time) to similar levels as cerment and not carbonate as well as fatty lime putty for breathability purposes, or the holy grail of hot lime!

You don't want to believe everything you read on FB of course, or anywhere on the intertubes. But there are various degrees of NHL and the more 'eminently' hydraulic you get the faster it sets, even under water (hence the name and purpose), and the less breathable it is. Whether that means it's better or worse depends on your application of course.

As for the gaps around the floor to the sub floor... There are several bricks broken, especially near the front door, with some missing and you can see the outside airbrick with relative ease if you get to floor level.

I bought some rolls of sheep's wool pipe lagging 75mm width and had the idea to push it down into the gaps before fitting skirting. I figured as it's breathable, any moisture that may collect on it, could diffuse down and be dried up via the cross air flow below the floorboards? I'll post a pic...

When it comes to floors, and indeed in general, you need to keep airtightness (and ventilation) in mind as well as breathability and insulation. With floors life is especially complicated, since you also need to think about the effects of liquid water - spilled coffee or a more serious flood. Sadly there are no correct answers - you have to work out your own compromises. But water permeable insulation has many advantages underfloor, and as long as the underside isn't 'wind-washed' doesn't need special treatment underneath. You will want something that is airtight above it however.]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291595#Comment_291595 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291595#Comment_291595 Sat, 11 Sep 2021 11:16:13 +0100 BiscuitsAndTea Posted By: djh
But water permeable insulation has many advantages underfloor, and as long as the underside isn't 'wind-washed' doesn't need special treatment underneath. You will want something that is airtight above it however.


Thanks for input but what do you mean by 'wind washed'? And what would be 'air tight' that you are suggesting could go above it?

Do you think I'm onto the wrong track with the sheep's wool?]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291598#Comment_291598 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291598#Comment_291598 Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:26:57 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary
Air tight layer above the under floor board insulation = plastic sheet.

Reference sheep's wool. You have to be very careful to avoid insect infestation (moth and alike) and sheep's wool can be treated chemically to prevent this but it is not always 100% effective. The 100% cure for insect infestation of sheep's wool is to use glass fibre wool or rockwool.]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291600#Comment_291600 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291600#Comment_291600 Sat, 11 Sep 2021 12:37:00 +0100 djh Posted By: BiscuitsAndTeaThanks for input but what do you mean by 'wind washed'? It means air blowing across insulation that is not wind-tight. And into and through the insulation to some extent. The first google hits for the term include https://www.energyauditingblog.com/what-is-windwashing-and-why-every-homeowner-should-know/ and https://basc.pnnl.gov/resource-guides/wind-washing which both appear reasonable explanations. A seond membrane under the insulation (see below) is the usual cure.

And what would be 'air tight' that you are suggesting could go above it?
Typically people use a membrane of some kind under the floor boards and maybe wrapped under the joists as well, unless they fit the membrane before the floor boards. The membrane clearly wants to be airtight, but perhaps not water tight, and whether it wants to be vapour tight depends on the particular circumstances. Other people here have more experience of suspended floors than me.

Do you think I'm onto the wrong track with the sheep's wool?
No, I don't think that's a problem.]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291623#Comment_291623 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291623#Comment_291623 Sun, 12 Sep 2021 12:52:04 +0100 SimonD
As already mentioned getting hold of trades for work right now is a problem pretty much everywhere and they typically aren't that great at communication. Be patient and persistent and you'll eventually find someone, or you'll change track.

I don't think building control is an issue here at all and wouldn't worry about it.

I won't comment on the wall plastering other than that you've experienced lime purists in that nothing other than the classical non-hydraulic is any good. Don't worry too much about it.

On the wall floor junction, I guess you're not planning to pull up the floor to add any insulation?

If that's the case, then focus on airtightness. Your sheepswool won't do much for that, even if it's a nice material. What I would suggest is that you just go and buy some mortar from the local diy/builders merchant, use a bit of plasticiser to make application easier if you haven't worked with mortar and then fill the large holes in the wall. It looks to me like someone has in the not too distant past replaced the floor joists and lazily not remedied the wall, instead hiding it. You can set the loose bricks in place as best you can - again a simple but fiddly diy job.

Then, to provide airtightness, your easiest best is something like Saudatight LQ liquid membrane with the Saudatight Geotextile which will bridge most gaps between wall and floor and it's easy to apply with a paint brush. This membrane is paintable and plasterable so you can put it in place and then when the plasterer comes to do the wall, the upstand can be covered by plaster.

HTH.]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291662#Comment_291662 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291662#Comment_291662 Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:39:57 +0100 kristeva Posted By: SimonDIt seems like you've been plunged into that retrofit spiral; one thing uncovers another which uncovers another.

I don't think building control is an issue here at all and wouldn't worry about it.

I won't comment on the wall plastering other than that you've experienced lime purists in that nothing other than the classical non-hydraulic is any good. Don't worry too much about it.

HTH.

+1 on all the above.

As Simon says I wouldn't get to bogged down with the lime issue, a lot of the purists seem to resent the modern lime products. On one plasterers forum I joined the admin had to ban the use of the phrase 'Lime Green' because the company complained about a vendetta waged against them by one of the posters. Although you don't have much width to work with on the stair wall surely something is better than nothing, the only thing I'd say about 'Ultra' is whilst I found it took to lath very well I didn't have the same experience with bare brick, and it seems to dry incredibly fast.

I can certainly sympathise with the retrofit spiral, when they converted the farm into housing they left great big holes in the walls when fitting joists, etc. Pulling off old skirting board pretty much removed all the plaster and revealed the draughty holes. When the gaps are so large there's nothing you can do but grab some mortar and brick them up again I'm afraid. Learning to use lime mortar has been one of the most enjoyable aspects of my renovation.]]> Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum... http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291670#Comment_291670 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17184&Focus=291670#Comment_291670 Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:51:52 +0100 muddy