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Building Regulations and Standards: Sinks and electricity

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    • CommentAuthorjwd
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    I am planning on putting a sink in a workroom this week end and have just realised there is a switch for a fan on the wall near were I was going to put it in. How far does the sink have to be from the fan switch (its one of those with an integral fuse)? I am in Scotland if it makes any difference.

    Cheers

    Jw
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    I think English building regs. say 300mm from hobs and sinks. I don't think wiring regs. have a minimum distance AFAIK.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    All a confused area as there is now a lot of plastic pipework.
    Make sure any circuit close to a wet area has an RCD fitted and it is working.
    • CommentAuthorjwd
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    cheers all
    Ill keep it at least 300mm away from switch.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    Couldn't find anything specific in the Scottish Building Standards Technical Handbook Domestic, 2010, which just references BS 7671.

    This discussion: http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=34855 backs up the 300 mm thing. Not actually in 7671 but suggested in various guidance documents associated with it, it seems.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    I have a feeling that most electrical kitchen clutter comes with a 300mm lead these days. So it stops you dropping it into a sink full of water.
  7.  
    You can now have a plug socket in the bathroom , if your installation up to 17th edition 2008 , as long as it's 3m from bath ( of course no extension leads more than 3m :confused: )
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2013
     
    To put that in context though James, I've a single socket outlet on the landing that's probably only 2m from the bath and about 900mm for the basin - Memsahib uses it for the hairdryer

    The wiring regs had absolutely no comment on that - and the change in regulations for special locations only aligns with Europe and addresses the confusion over en suite showers in bedrooms.

    If you really want to drop an appliance in the bath, you'll find a way. Ditto the kitchen sink (although hopefully you ain't wet and naked in there)

    Regards

    Barney
  9.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite>You can now have a plug socket in the bathroom , if your installation up to 17th edition 2008 , as long as it's 3m from bath ( of course no extension leads more than 3m<img src="/forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/confused.gif" alt=":confused:" title=":confused:"></img>)</blockquote>

    it is 3m of the edge of zone 2 you would need a very big bathroom. Like Barney said the socket on the landing will be closer then that. Bs 7671 dose not have a rule on sockets near sinks as long as it is to 17th ed with RCD on any circuit with wires less than 50mm in a wall. 16th ed used to be a metre but as said 300mm is recomended due to heat and risk of water splashing.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
     
    To be clear, you have to go back quite a few decades to find a dimension regarding outlets and sinks.

    Certainly, the 15th edition, 16th edition and current 17th edition make any recommendation on a specific distance

    The RCD requirement extends beyond just buried cables (in a domestic setting) - it also relates to the type of outlet, and the location ( eg every socket less than 20A and every circuit within a room containing a bath or shower requires RCD protection, even if you wired it on the surface).

    Going back to outlets/accessories and sinks, the requirement is simply that the installation considers the relevant influences - so if you want it right by the sink bowl, then use a suitably IP rated outlet - ditto for wall switches in bathrooms etc etc

    Regards

    Barney
  11.  
    I trained as 16th but it had changed to 17th half way throw my aprentiship. So I never really read the regs before 17th but I was told it was a metre. Your are right Barney that there are a lot of rule why you use a RCD but the rule that states any Cable less than 50mm needs a RCD normally means in a domestic setting you need one seems as not many folk want cables in trunking every where
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
     
    Don't you have bathrooms, sockets and unskilled and/or uninstructed people in domestic settings then ?

    That's the principal reason why we have RCD's - despite the rumour regarding a certain MP's daughter

    Regards

    Barney
  13.  
    Yea I have heard the rumour. In reality compared to some other eu country's we have been slow on the up take of RCDs in terms of rcbos and the use of radals instead of ring mains.
  14.  
    Posted By: barneyIf you really want to drop an appliance in the bath, you'll find a way.


    Electric showers are generally only IP4X and full of condensate...

    The 17th edition isn't gospel. You're perfectly entitled to make a safe installation of your own that references, say, the French or German regs.

    Easier to wait for BCO signoff against a 17th edition installation with shaver or blanking faceplates then switch for sockets at a later date though. At the same time you raise the damn light switches from knee height back up to adult height...
  15.  
    Do you have something against short people ?? :smile:
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: hebden-passive-house
    it is 3m of the edge of zone 2 you would need a very big bathroom.
    check your regs it's 3m from zone 1 :tongue: :bigsmile:
  17.  
    Just checked and it is 3m from zone 1 its been a fair few years since I looked at that reg :shamed:
  18.  
    You could perhaps use an air switch.

    What is the house to be used for? If it is potentially to be inspected by regulators (thinking of EHOs) who have no Competent Electrical Person status, then lack of clarity can work against you.


    Markocosic:
    The 17th edition isn't gospel. You're perfectly entitled to make a safe installation of your own that references, say, the French or German regs.


    Fascinated by the idea that I can wire up a house according to Greek or French regulations. How does that work?

    Ferdinand
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
     
    Scottish regs specifically say 17th edition:

    “An electrical installation should be designed, constructed, installed and tested such that it is in accordance with the recommendations of BS 7671: 2008.”

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/resource/buildingstandards/2013Domestic/chunks/ch05s06.html#d5e13790

    Does say “should”, not “must”, though. Don't know if that distinction is made in the same way that it is in a lot of software documentation (eg., internet RFCs) where “should” means you must do it unless there's a good reason why not. Still, a bit surprising - I thought EU law required that countries not impose national standards; that they have to accept “equivalent” standards from other member countries.
  20.  
    Posted By: hebden-passive-houseJust checked and it is 3m from zone 1 its been a fair few years since I looked at that reghttp:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/shamed.gif" alt=":shamed:" title=":shamed:" >
    yes worth a look at the 2011 update . Green book/onsite guide there's a few changes in there.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    BS 7671 is basically the UK interpretation of Harmonised Documents (HD's) - wiring codes in other EU countries derive from the same HD's.

    There are however, many specific UK only regulations in BS 7671 based on custom and practice - bathrooms and sockets and the good old ring final circuit being two typical examples - as would be the prohibition on certain types of socket outlet (technically) or consideration of increased shock risk present from our use of cables with reduced earthing conductor cross sectional areas

    Going back to "wet" things however, basically areas where you are likley to be wet and naked are areas of increased shock risk - which is why BS 7671 describes them as special locations and imposes certain additional requirements

    Regards

    Barney
  22.  
    Posted By: jamesingramDo you have something against short people ??http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/smile.gif" alt=":smile:" title=":smile:" >


    Yes. And people in wheelchairs. And fat people. And stupid people. And and and... :wink:

    And no. It's the regulatory changes made to pacify the most vocal of them that I dislike. Added to custom/practice/supply chain.

    Kitchen worktops @ 900 mm give me a back back. 950 mm please. Wall units 500 mm above the worktop block my line of sight of the back of the worktop. 650-700 mm please. Door handles that mean I've got to balance a box on my knees whilst half-kneeling to reach down to the keyhole are annoying. Light switches that are an awkward middle between a bent and a straight arm. Consumer units in absurd positions that require me to kneel down to read the labels. (but are fine for children?) Showers that are suitable for washing you from the armpits down. Toilets that are so low that they're squat toilets unless you're a 5 year old. Washbasins designed for genitals not hands...

    Some of it is custom and practice; a supply chain that hasn't realised people have grown since 1950: kitchens and bathrooms you can fix. A lot of it is regulations designed so that a stupid fat vocal wheelchair-bound shortarse feels right at home in *my own* home that I'm not allowed to vary. That's frustrating. Solvable - you build it one way then immediately modify post signoff - but frustrating!

    I wouldn't want to "prove" that a continental installation was safe to a BCO. An ambulance chaser couldn't "prove" that it was dangerous either. Ergo essentially fine to modify afterwards unless commercial building.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    I guess the idea is that it looks at the property over its intended life - I put all the light switches at 1200mm and it's suprising how used to them you get - ditto for wall sockets at 400mm - I can see that with age and possible infirmity, they'll be easier for me to use in a few decades time - and I might get to stay in the house longer.

    I personally don't think it results from a vocal minority - much of it is just common sense.

    Clearly what kicks it off is the idea of "it's my house, I'll do what I like" - which often isn't true as the house will outlive many occupants

    Regards

    Barney
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Posted By: markocosicKitchen worktops @ 900 mm give me a back back. 950 mm please. Wall units 500 mm above the worktop block my line of sight of the back of the worktop. 650-700 mm please.

    I just installed a sink in my new garage at 1000 mm :) As soon as SWMBO saw it, she said "that sink's too high". Fortunately, it's MY garage. However, it's HER kitchen and 900 mm worktop is about right for her. But the hob needs to be at 800 mm (not 850 nor 760) and the wall cupboards need to be only 300 mm above the worktop. She can see to the back, I can't. Most importantly, she can then reach them.

    Posted By: barneyClearly what kicks it off is the idea of "it's my house, I'll do what I like" - which often isn't true as the house will outlive many occupants

    I very much hope our house outlives us. But whoever gets to use it after us can adjust the kitchen to suit them, or rewire the whole house if they don't like whatever height the sockets end up! Since even my wife and I don't agree on the ideal height for things, because we're different sizes, I don't see why we should compromise any further!
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    I didn't say you needed to compromise further - AD-M is not unreasonable in making basic provision for you to use the house through life and make it useable for others without them getting involved in extensive remodelling/rewiring which is not really a sustainable thing to be doing in essence.

    Putting switches and regularly accessed sockets at reasonable locations really shouldn't be such a drama

    Regards

    Barney
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Why not put all the light switched in the ceiling and change the length of the cord:wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaWhy not put all the light switched in the ceiling and change the length of the cord :wink:

    Now that's a good idea. String is cheaper than T&E cable, too.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Posted By: barneyI didn't say you needed to compromise further - AD-M is not unreasonable

    Sorry, I meant compromise any further than taking my opinion and my wife's opinion into consideration, not compromise further than I'm legally forced.

    As it happens, I agree that AD-M is fairly reasonable. The issue is how far it is reasonable to force people to do things rather than ask them politely.
  29.  

    I just installed a sink in my new garage at 1000 mm :) As soon as SWMBO saw it, she said "that sink's too high". Fortunately, it's MY garage. However, it's HER kitchen and 900 mm worktop is about right for her. But the hob needs to be at 800 mm (not 850 nor 760) and the wall cupboards need to be only 300 mm above the worktop. She can see to the back, I can't. Most importantly, she can then reach them.


    I don't see how the bottom of the sink can be at the same height as the worktop, so it's even a compromise for one person.

    Ferdinand
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Well no one asks you politely about structure, fire, drainage, energy, combustion or anything else I guess - Building Regulations are just a simple stautory instrument - supported by reasonably sensible Approved Documents to allow you one or more ways to comply - basically not up for much debate as far as HMG are concerned I suppose :cry:

    Regards

    Barney

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