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    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022
     
    Posted By: lineweightHave to say, I am not really familiar with the idea of electric vertical takeoff planes as a serious thing.

    What advantage exactly would they have over intercity rail? What's the land take of their airports relative to carrying capacity? Would they only operate end to end journeys or deal with intermediate stops? What's the dwell time at an intermediate stop?

    Even monster planes like the A380 only carry about 800 people, not much more than a conventional UK long distance train and less than an HS2 train or the Eurostar. What would, say, a service every 5 minutes carrying 1000 seats actually look like, in terms of airport size?


    Not everyone lives beside a train station. These don't need an airport. That's one main benefit. They could take off or land at any designated flat space on a building (if designed to take the weight) or car park or back yard...
    Dwell time - I don't see why it should be much more than a bus. All passengers clicked in - go.

    Current designs (there are several going through development): 4-10 passengers. Up to 200 mph. Up to 150 mile range. Barely louder than a bus. 'Lowish' running costs - these will start higher as there will initially need to be a pilot, but will drop massively when the technology proves itself and these become pilotless.
    Perfect for cross city or city to city hops.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022 edited
     
    ...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022 edited
     
    Very good, neelpeel.
    Posted By: lineweightElectric vehicles ... don't address congestion ... don't solve issues to do with equity of access to transport ... don't even solve problems with local air pollution - just make it less bad.
    Posted By: neelpeelDriverless cars, in time, will mean much lower car ownership, freeing up roads from parking - which can either mean more lanes or hopefully more green / pedestrian space.
    And self-assembling into hi speed close coupled convoys (joining and peeling off fluidly) compacts roadspace occupied at any given time and reduces number of 'vehicles' passing, if each convoy seems like one vehicle.
    Posted By: neelpeel... without anyone having to make any change in their habits
    So they may think, but not owning a car but getting used to summoning one and a wait which could be only 5mins in rural areas, judging by anticipated and even present-day AI-guided logistics prediction; end of 'joy of (open-road) driving' and its corollary, road-rage; and time to think, read, meditate, make love, will all be beneficial changes. There would undoubtedly still be self-driving buses zig-zagging between summoners - how social!

    Whether such transport will be extortionate SaaS-paid-for, or free to all as a human right, is an issue which exists today and will be neither cured nor solved by new technologies.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022
     
    There's a big difference between a self-driving car that operates in a pre-mapped area, such as the robo-taxi services operating in San Francisco, and a go-anywhere self-driving car that can share any road with any other vehicle and behave as if it was driven by a human.

    For those of us that don't live in cities, and who live in areas with spider webs of local roads with agricultural equipment, bin lorries, artic deliveries etc also trying to use those roads, the latter is what we need. That's a lot more than a few years away, IMHO. Oddly, the latest protein-structure-prediction effort from Meta might be more relevant than most of the autonomous car work done to date.

    George Hotz said "We solved self driving cars years ago, we just haven’t found all the bugs yet." Feels similar to fusion.
  5.  
    And moving-block train signals. Promised in the 90s for the west coast mainline. Still not available, AFAICT, except for metro/tube trains.
  6.  
    I agree that fully self-driving, non privately owned cars would effectively be public transport, and would be a game changer especially in rural areas. And, for example, would allow you to completely change the approach to rural bus services.

    As DJH says true go-anywhere self driving cars seem to be a long way off. I've not seen anything to convince me there's any likelihood of them appearing for a long time yet.

    Even if/when they do become possible - yes I agree they can greatly increase utilisation rate and reduce area needed for parking. If widely used, as regular cars are now, you still have all the problems of congestion and you still need all the roadspace (perhaps they can also make more efficient use of roadspace whilst in transit, but the result will still be that all available capacity will fill up at peak times, so the effect is likely to be more cars on the same amount of roadspace, unless we deliberately reduce that roadspace and give it over to other modes such as cycling or bus lanes).

    The idea of them forming themselves into close coupled convoys ignores certain important issues such as crashworthiness. A significant amount of a car's length is used up with crumple zone. Couple a load together, not only do you have a large chunk of your convoy doing nothing but being crumple zone, but do you want to be in the car at the front when it hits an obstacle and your crumple zone is absorbing a large portion of the kinetic energy of the entire convoy?

    Maybe there are ways of making that convoy work in safety terms but even so, an efficient convoy on a motorway doesn't really help once you reach a built up area and everyone wants to go in different directions. You are still dumping a load of individual carriers onto a road network and they still use the space very inefficiently compared to other modes of transport.

    A lot of these ideas are still quite pie-in-the-sky - for sure, technology will create a lot of new possibilities, but there's a long history in transport planning of things that seem a great idea until they meet the real world and a whole load of unforeseen issues become apparent. So if we are making transport policy decisions now, they should only be based on assumptions of things that we currently, now, know actually work. High speed rail, buses, trams, bicycles, walking, all these are things that we can be confident do work, and we know what the issues are with them.

    Vertical takeoff electric planes, self driving close coupled pod cars, these are things that have not been tested in the real world yet, *at all*.

    Fun to speculate about, but they don't at this point have a role in serious transport policy planning.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022
     
    OK lineweight, lots of problems, way to go

    Posted By: lineweightmaking transport policy decisions now, they should only be based on assumptions of things that we currently, now, know actually work
    Leave out the "only" - shd certainly at same time keep a visionary "eye on best-available future-looking as to how the three are likely to merge".

    Posted By: lineweightan efficient convoy on a motorway doesn't really help once you reach a built up area and everyone wants to go in different directions. You are still dumping a load of individual carriers onto a road network and they still use the space very inefficiently compared to other modes of transport.
    Just on that point, once peeled off the trunk route, in the city/town/even village there wd be numerous convoys, of flexible size, going every which way, to fluidly join/peel off from, till solo perhaps the last 100m.
  8.  
    Sure, keep an eye on potential technology, but don't assume it's going to work as expected, when making decisions now.

    For lessons from history, look at how quickly many railway lines were shut down (and the trackbed not even protected) on the assumption that it was all redundant now we had affordable private cars and road transport in general.

    In the early days of motoring it was assumed that the car would give everyone freedom, but things like congestion, gridlock and pollution were not properly anticipated. The urban planning that went alongside it didn't look as nice in reality as the early drawings.

    Now fifty-plus years later, it's apparent that it would be rather useful to have many of those lines back (indeed, you might even be able to make an argument that HS2 would not be necessary, if we'd kept certain trunk lines that were then seen as duplication) but in most cases it's very hard to do so, because there is stuff built on the trackbed, and entire patterns of development have shifted to be accessible by road instead.

    Same applies to all the freight capacity that was lost - rail served industrial or logistics sites converted to other uses, because we just assumed we could shift most freight to road. Now it's often very difficult to find suitable rail connected sites that would allow certain things to be shifted back.
  9.  
    Posted By: fostertomJust on that point, once peeled off the trunk route, in the city/town/even village there wd be numerous convoys, of flexible size, going every which way, to fluidly join/peel off from, till solo perhaps the last 100m.


    Sounds great in theory but has anyone built and tested this? Worked out exactly what happens at junctions and so on? In what ways would road design need to change? Once you are in slow-moving traffic, how much benefit does a convoy actually provide - conventional traffic is often already quite closely spaced. If it reduces roadspace needed by 10% maybe that's nice, but doesn't solve congestion in general. Compare with the massive gains in efficency that can be obtained by switching people to other modes.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022
     
    Posted By: lineweightI agree that fully self-driving, non privately owned cars would effectively be public transport, and would be a game changer especially in rural areas.
    I'm not sure how, given the local roads and traffic they would have to deal with.

    And, for example, would allow you to completely change the approach to rural bus services
    Rural buses could be improved pretty easily by (a) substituting smaller vehicles for the full-size single and even double-deckers that are generally used and (b) moving to a more demand-driven service in some places
  11.  
    When i say "fully self driving" I mean capable of dealing with any road a human can now.

    Which I believe is a long way off.

    Agree that demand responsive bus services seem promising as a concept. Was a bit sceptical until I watched something about a trial scheme they are running somewhere in (?)surrey.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 3rd 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: lineweightif we'd kept certain trunk lines that were then seen as duplication
    Indeed, the Great Central, the last mainline, built to best GWR-standard alignments with continental loading gauge (high and wide bridges etc), by a visionary gent (weren't they all) who intended to link thro central London (he also owned the Metropolitan Railway) to Paris by a channel tunnel, unfortunately scotched by two WWs (fear of invasion via tunnel!). All shut down by you know who and trackbed built over, as duplicating the perfectly adequate West and East Coast lines. Didn't stop a 1980s consortium from proposing its reopening as a hi-capacity latest-tech fast freight-only line, to level-up (you heard that right) languishing Midland/Northern industry, by bringing their access right to London's doorstep.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 4th 2022
     
    So it's HS2 not in doubt,
    "Truss’s pledge to eventually connect northern towns and cities from Hull to Liverpool, through Bradford (already a watered down 'Northern Powerhouse Rail') will at the very least be scaled back",
    Sizewell C under review (hooray!),
    but nevertheless "seeking to approve at least one large-scale nuclear project in the next few years".
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2022
     
    Posted By: lineweightWhen i say "fully self driving" I mean capable of dealing with any road a human can now.

    Which I believe is a long way off.

    Yes, this was DJH's point too and I don't disagree with this as there are major challenges to get these self-drive cars to the point that they are able to cope with every road and every situation. However, this will not stop them from being able to drive on a constantly increasing network of roads. E.g. starting with motorways, A-roads and major city roads and more roads being verified and added to the 'network' all the time. Similar to the way that Google has 'mapped' the country.
    For rural communities this will still be better than a bus network. I currently need to drive 3 miles to get to any bus service, but if the local B road was 'mapped' I would likely be able to walk 300m to get to a self-drive 'pick up point'.

    The tech companies have quickly specialised rather than trying to do everything. I.e. into those that develop the AI and software algorithms, those that develop the specialised sensors / cameras, etc and those that develop the robotics. There are billions of dollars backing the technology and massive benefits to the punters - it just needs the tech to get to that tipping point.
  15.  
    Agree with all this.

    There are some 'on demand' bus services near us (and two scheduled bus services each week, both on a Wednesday midmorning).

    The 'on demand' buses basically seem to be big taxis which show up if anyone has phoned to ask the taxi company to travel at the scheduled bus time. I'm not sure I can see why that is better/greener/cheaper than just calling a normal taxi? It still means someone driving out from town, picking you up and driving you into to town, then repeat when you come home - so four journeys are driven instead of two? Fair enough that it is subsidised, and two of the journeys might carry several people, but for the other two it's just the driver onboard.

    Likewise, how will the future self-driving autonomous cars, be better/greener/cheaper than present-day taxis- is it just that we won't need to pay for a taxi driver?

    Anyone know what the big benefit will be?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2022 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: WillInAberdeen</cite>how will the future self-driving autonomous cars, be better/greener/cheaper than present-day taxis</blockquote>

    If self-driving on-demand buses happen at large scale i.e. one of two principal means of rural getting from A to B, there would be lots of communal buses buzzing around the lanes i.e. one or some usually close by, which can be efficiently routed to pick you up adequately soon. AI predictive optimisation to minimise wait time and mileage, shared between many passengers, wd make it nothing like present taxi-like on-demand buses, incl not limited to scheduled times.

    The other principal means of rural transport, summoning a self-driving car, similarly promptly by similar means from nearby, might have advantages like Sinclair C5 lightweightness, or perhaps better for longer trips like more distant towns, or when a truck or van is what's needed.

    Jusrt re-reading Ivan Illich Energy and Equity in collected essays https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyond-Economics-Ecology-Radical-Thought/dp/0714531588/ref=sr_1_1?crid=21NE8NZUSTGYQ&keywords=Ivan+Illich+Beyond+economics&qid=1667836894&sprefix=ivan+illich+beyond+economics%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-1 , which uses transport as the exemplar (amongst other aspects of scociety/politics/economics) to illustrate his point. Devastatingly radical thinking from 1975! We're all still barking up the wrong tree.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2022 edited
     
    I found this interesting viewing, on the subject of demand-responsive buses.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

    For the demand-responsive bus concept, the self-driving bit is less important, because you are still trying to use one vehicle to convey a number of different passenger-journeys simultaneously, and avoid carrying fresh air as much as possible. So a human driver is more gainfully employed.

    The traditional taxi model (in rural areas) very often involves the car & driver doing twice the mileage of every passenger journey, so that's why the self-driving bit would be more of a game-changer. You're not paying someone to do the legs of the journey with no passenger - nor are you paying anyone to sit in a stationary car if the optimal way of dealing with journeys demanded turns out to be to have a car sitting in a remote location for a few hours (lets say where it has taken someone from a railway station to a far flung wedding venue and also needs to bring them back later).
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: neelpeelYes, this was DJH's point too and I don't disagree with this as there are major challenges to get these self-drive cars to the point that they are able to cope with every road and every situation. However, this will not stop them from being able to drive on a constantly increasing network of roads. E.g. starting with motorways, A-roads and major city roads and more roads being verified and added to the 'network' all the time. Similar to the way that Google has 'mapped' the country.
    For rural communities this will still be better than a bus network. I currently need to drive 3 miles to get to any bus service, but if the local B road was 'mapped' I would likely be able to walk 300m to get to a self-drive 'pick up point'.


    Yes, I can see that if self-driving cars can at least cover the network of roads currently covered by bus services, then there would be a good argument for using an on-demand car service to replace sparsely used bus services.

    I think I'd want a layered system though, so that these self-driving cars don't replace the entire journey from rural village to city centre: they take you from rural village to small-town transport hub, where you transfer onto a bus or train service that gathers enough custom to be able to operate a well loaded, frequent timetabled service. Otherwise you just end up with thousands of individual-passenger self driving cars converging on urban areas and causing just the same kind of congestion (and consequent hindrance of public transport services) that we see today.

    The kind of system described above could potentially be a lot better than the current public transport offered in rural areas. The big question would be whether it could offer a sufficiently improved system that you start tempting not just the people who have always had to use public transport (because they can't drive or don't own a car for whatever reason) but people who would otherwise have used their own private cars. Because then you can try and initiate a virtuous cycle where in response to increasing passenger numbers the edge of the "conventional public transport" network moves outwards and becomes more frequent and comprehensive. Rather than simply creating an ever increasing number of self driving cars shuttling around everywhere.
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: lineweight
    Otherwise you just end up with thousands of individual-passenger self driving cars converging on urban areas and causing just the same kind of congestion (and consequent hindrance of public transport services) that we see today.

    This is where the AI driven car sharing will come into it's own. I imagine the software will constantly, automatically reroute (within reason) to pick up and drop off multiple passengers. It's not a single A - B. And with no driver there is an extra seat. :-) A 7 seater self-drive 'taxi-bus' for instance may always have an average of 5 or 6 bums on seats.
    If you don't like sharing and prefer to take up the entire taxi-bus on your own (probably then a small 2 seater) then you would pay a premium.
    Even the 'premium' cost should be much cheaper than a current taxi...
    - No driver
    - Efficient EV so low fuel costs
    - Thousands of taxi-buses in the area so the distance to/from base to pick-up is much reduced (& quicker!).

    We've not even touched on some of the main benefits yet...
    - Safety - Roughly 1,600 killed and 26,000 serious injured in the UK alone each year. This could be massively reduced.
    - this will be a revolution for people than can't drive for whatever reason. E.g. older folks, disabled/blind, drunk, no license. Will be as simple as pushing a button on your phone.
    - commuters that would usually be driving can start/finish work in the car - yes, this can be seen as a negative, but maybe it means folks will start later/finish earlier.
    - maybe 1/5th to 1/10th cars necessary (most cars currently sit on the kerbside most of the time). That's a LOT of embodied energy.

    The first big change I think will be families dropping their second car.
  20.  
    IME the network described above, already exists in the form of local taxi/minibus companies. People who can't access a private car for whatever reason, will often take a taxi into the nearest town. The local taxi-minibuses and 20-seaters run the school bus and the patient transfer services. Everyone knows a local cabbie, and they know which hillside lane their regulars live up, and help carry their shopping etc., and know where/when to wait for the best chance of getting the next fare.

    Unfortunately, taxis have to start from a base, drive to pick you up, take you into town and bring you home again, then return to base for eventual cleaning and recharge, so there is more mileage compared to driving yourself. They tend to be bigger vehicles, especially the minivan kind. There has to be over-provision of seats and vehicles to cope with the busy periods, so there is idling during the rest of the day, which has to be included in the fare price. The option is already available to share a taxi and split the cost, either through informal agreements or ride-sharing route-optimising apps, but that doesn't require self-drivingness, and isn't done much because people live out in different directions.


    I'm still not seeing what autonomous self-driving will add to all that, except saving the cost of the driver? How much will that reduce the fare by, 50%? More/less?

    So if that network became cheaper and more-used, there'd be more miles driven by bigger vehicles on rural roads, and parking during quieter periods. Where's the advantage? I know I'm missing something here!

    Set against that, private EVs have lower per-mile costs than petrol cars, so once you've stumped up to purchase your own self-driving EV, there won't be much reason not to just drive it lots. You could save if you could avoid purchasing a(nother) EV.

    Self-driving cars will be great for rural people who cannot drive for whatever reason, allowing people to own private transport who presently cannot, and perhaps avoid having to retire into town.

    Rural drivers need to deal with stray sheep, fallen branches, flooding, ice, snowdrifts, and the etiquette of single-track roads - will be a little while before autonomous cars can do all those! However, autonomous driving is already a big thing for farm tractors, some amazing capabilities there.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenSo if that network became cheaper and more-used, there'd be more miles driven by bigger vehicles on rural roads, and parking during quieter periods. Where's the advantage? I know I'm missing something here!
    Is this it?
    Posted By: fostertomIf self-driving on-demand buses happen at large scale there would be lots of communal buses buzzing around the lanes i.e. one or some usually close by, which can be efficiently routed to pick you up adequately soon. AI predictive optimisation to minimise wait time and mileage, shared between many passengers, wd make it nothing like present taxi-like on-demand buses.
    So the economies would depend on
    a) large take-up, and
    b) AI predictive optimisation.
    Otherwise, agreed, no change from present.
  22.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI'm still not seeing what autonomous self-driving will add to all that, except saving the cost of the driver? How much will that reduce the fare by, 50%? More/less?


    No idea!

    It's not just the cost though.

    Ever tried to get a taxi from a rural train station to a final destination? Sometimes it can be pretty hard work. Either you have to arrange it in advance, or risk a long wait if you try and get one on the spot. The car will very often have to be driven to you from some other place, before even starting on the journey you want to make.

    In my imagined/idealised setup, every rural station would have a few self-driving cars based there, so that for the most part, you could get off the train, request one and it would have you on your way in minutes. Of course, there's still the thing about catering for peak demand, so you'd have some that were sitting doing nothing for relatively long periods. But this would still be much better than the current situation where rural stations often have large car parks full of cars that do nothing inbetween their owners arriving in the morning and leaving in the evening, cars that take up space and can't be used by anyone else during that time. A pool of self driving cars could be partly used for local journeys during the day, and each of them might be able to carry more than one commuter per day if their times were staggered. You could obviously encourage this via pricing.

    Actually what I am describing is not really different in concept from a car club - these are very successful in cities but haven't really appeared much in rural areas. I wish we had a nationwide car club scheme and a transport policy that placed some at, for example, rural train stations. What self-driving cars could add to that is they would be accessible to anyone, not just those with a driving licence.
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen
    I'm still not seeing what autonomous self-driving will add to all that, except saving the cost of the driver? How much will that reduce the fare by, 50%? More/less?


    For rural only journeys the greatest benefit will indeed be cost. With a 50-75% saving, I think many people will make the call to not need a car of their own (or a 2nd car).
    There is also the availability (2-5 minute wait as opposed to 1/2hr or much more on a Fri/Sat night).

    Posted By: WillInAberdeen
    Rural drivers need to deal with stray sheep, fallen branches, flooding, ice, snowdrifts, and the etiquette of single-track roads - will be a little while before autonomous cars can do all those! However, autonomous driving is already a big thing for farm tractors, some amazing capabilities there.

    In theory a self-driver should cope better with stray sheep, deer, etc. Especially in the dark. None of those pesky slow reactions and dodgy eyesight to get in the way.
    Flooding/ice/snow...in theory the automated car should get a lot better at coping with sliding/aquaplaning than you or me. With regards spotting these things, I am no expert but I can imagine there being sensors/cameras looking out for these sort of dangers and slowing appropriately - especially if the system is sensing freezing temps.
    I could also see the cars flagging and therefore being automatically warned of flooding/ice at particular GPS locations as these are encountered.
    Rural 'passing points' can be recorded in the network mapping.
    But yes, the 'random' events will no doubt be the tricky things to deal with. I could see there being an emergency button where a remote 'driver' could take control of the car and negotiate these situations (using all the cameras and sensors plastered around the car). This will depend on the 5G network, so once again rural situations could be tricky.

    Again, it won't be perfect from the outset - but it will get gradually better and better as the AI is adapted and sensing improved. Competition will drive it.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2022 edited
     
    Apparently, Google's Streetview produces extremely accurate 3D maps of every street it drives down and that's the basis of the mapping that Waymo's cars need. So, given there's a Streetview map of the road outside my house it would seem that Waymo specifically have the technical ability to present a self-driving taxi at my house (if not quite at my front door).

    I believe what prevents them doing that is the law in the UK. Also, to allow me to replace my own car, it would have to be able to come up my drive to the front door on at least some occasions.

    In other news Mercedes have seemingly announced that they are no longer intending to produce a general self-driving car (they had been in partnership with Waymo, for example) and instead will produce a Level 3 product designed only to be self-driving in certain conditions on specific types of highway. So not everybody is yet convinced.

    edit: just to add that the other place to watch is China. No surprise there :)
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: djhjust to add that the other place to watch is China. No surprise there :)

    Indeed. I don't think the UK will be the early adopter in the technology (or with EVTOLs). Japan or South Korea maybe for cars and probably Dubai and the likes for EVTOL. Once proven and improved somewhere it won't be long until it filters through.
  26.  
    Hinckley C is and always has been about the UKs continuing nuclear weapons program, it wont be cancelled. EDF are sabre rattling to politically justify their slice of the pie.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2022
     
    Posted By: bot de pailleHinckley C is and always has been about the UKs continuing nuclear weapons program
    Do you have a link to support that assertion?

    And your comment seems to be a bit of a non sequitur?
  28.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: bot de pailleHinckley C is and always has been about the UKs continuing nuclear weapons program
    Do you have a link to support that assertion?

    And your comment seems to be a bit of a non sequitur?



    "Electricity consumers 'to fund nuclear weapons through Hinkley Point C'

    Scientists tell MPs government is using expensive power project to cross-subsidise military by maintaining nuclear skills"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/12/electricity-consumers-to-fund-nuclear-weapons-through-hinkley-point-c
  29.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: bot de pailleHinckley C is and always has been about the UKs continuing nuclear weapons program
    Do you have a link to support that assertion?

    And your comment seems to be a bit of a non sequitur?


    Toms first post specifically cites HP :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2022
     
    Ah, OK, I see where you're coming from. We'll just have to accept that we have different views I think. :bigsmile: :devil:

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