Green Building Forum - Heat Pump Gate Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:28:45 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301741#Comment_301741 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301741#Comment_301741 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 09:37:30 +0100 Rex
I do not have a heat pump and from what I have read, do not intend to replace my gas boiler. When we built, they were more expensive than a gas boiler, and as we all know, building budgets can overrun very easily. So gas it was.

Perhaps heat pumps are good if installed at the building stage, and even though my house ticks all the 3g, well insulated, air tight boxes, I do not have available funds to replace the existing boiler, let alone the disruption.

Anyway, there was this interesting article in yesterday's business section of the Telegraph regarding government policy in Germany and the reaction against heat pumps.

Who would want to become a politician?

Toodle pip]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301742#Comment_301742 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301742#Comment_301742 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 10:21:03 +0100 Dominic Cooney Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301743#Comment_301743 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301743#Comment_301743 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 10:41:33 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Germans
Environmentalists
Green Party
Sadiq Khan
Emanuel Macron
Electric cars
Net Zero
post-Thatcher governments of the UK
Putin

Entertainingly, they predict that gas prices will remain very high in both Germany and UK as we will compete to import gas, but don't link that with our respective govt's plans to reduce dependence on gas for heating.


There was an opposite viewpoint in the Guardian (of course):
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/30/heat-pumps-more-than-80-per-cent-of-households-in-great-britain-satisfied-with-system

"Those who use heat pumps to warm their homes reported broadly similar levels of satisfaction to those with gas boilers, the survey commissioned by the innovation charity Nesta found.

"Satisfaction levels were also similar between respondents who installed a heat pump in a new-build home or in older properties, at more than 80%, despite persistent concerns that heat pumps are only effective in modern buildings.

"results should put to rest “outdated” concerns about the low carbon heating technology and prompt the government to “redouble its efforts” to phase out fossil fuel heating"



So as ever, the truth probably lies somewhere in between!]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301747#Comment_301747 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301747#Comment_301747 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 11:29:54 +0100 djh
I really, really hope the truth is not in between the Telegrope and the Grauniad, but is off to one side in a quiet corner somewhere. :devil:]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301748#Comment_301748 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301748#Comment_301748 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 11:31:49 +0100 WillInAberdeen ]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301750#Comment_301750 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301750#Comment_301750 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 13:52:57 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Merkel trying to solve Germany's demographic time bomb by opening the boarders to all migrants and causing continuing problems there and in the rest of Europe

Closing the nuclear power stations causing them to go back to coal burning. - Done as part of the governments need to get into bed with the greens in order to form a government

Now the gas boiler ban - where there are doubts that the grid can support the increased demand for the heat pumps (never mind the EVs). - So they have banned gas boilers and will run the heat pumps from coal fired power stations. Hmm - smart thinking Not.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301751#Comment_301751 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301751#Comment_301751 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 15:52:03 +0100 Dominic Cooney Posted By: djhthe countries with the largest uptake are those with the coldest climates

That was the biggy that also caught my attention.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301752#Comment_301752 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301752#Comment_301752 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 16:12:36 +0100 RobL Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301753#Comment_301753 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301753#Comment_301753 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 17:07:09 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301754#Comment_301754 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301754#Comment_301754 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 20:37:19 +0100 WillInAberdeen
It's changing to 30p:7.5p in July so 4:1. Can't find any reasons why gas price cap is falling faster than electricity, any ideas?

Edit : and how come the price ratio in Netherlands is so far different from in Germany and Belgium, yet grids interconnect? Not many heatpumps in NL if we take the Telegraph's graphic at face value...]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301755#Comment_301755 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301755#Comment_301755 Thu, 01 Jun 2023 21:55:32 +0100 Dominic Cooney There is no gas here so it's not an option for me. The cost of electric production (100% renewable) has not altered so am feeling rather ripped off by Octopus.
It would be interesting to look at the number crunching that was helpfully set out in our original quote, compared to today's prices.
My only other option is heating oil, which varies wildly anyway.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301756#Comment_301756 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301756#Comment_301756 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 09:01:25 +0100 Artiglio
Mandated for new builds from a given date and to becovered by the building guarantee which includes performance guarantees in terms of heating level and cop /cost. ( this would have forced the creation of a competent well trained heat pump industry that was held to account for the work it does)

Encourage retrofit (via grant funding, the funding again linked to performance guarantees) , in older properties, the performance guarantees would make sure that systems specified would have been calculated properly and customers informed as to the need to balance the needs of additional insulation/emitters against hp size.

Build the skills and knowledge base over time rather than recreate the wild west landscape that appeared under the biomass rhi scheme only for the cowboys to ride away when the subsidies were withdrawn.

Fudging the numbers on energy prices to make heatpumps look good is just disengenuous and will be politically suicidal , there needs to a close look at how electricity is priced not take the lazy option of increasing gas prices. Renewables are currently in no position to replace gas , when you consider intermittency, the need for grid upgrades , the cost of storage and having expensive generation on standby. The problem needs looking at from the viewpoint of value for money and provision of energy cheap enough to make our economy competitive, not the blind pursuit of the net zero dream.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301757#Comment_301757 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301757#Comment_301757 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 09:03:17 +0100 philedge Posted By: Dominic CooneyThe cost of electric production (100% renewable) has not altered so am feeling rather ripped off by Octopus.
Is it 100% renewable? The 100% figure is averaged over the year and on windless nights youll likely be using fossil fuel generated electricity, so Octopus probably need to keep their finger in the fossil fuel market. Come the day they have their own hydro/tidal sufficient to power all their customers then maybe they'd be able to detach themselves from the general market??]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301758#Comment_301758 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301758#Comment_301758 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 10:20:54 +0100 WillInAberdeen
https://watt-logic.com/2021/08/16/greenwashing/]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301759#Comment_301759 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301759#Comment_301759 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 10:57:33 +0100 djh Posted By: Dominic CooneyI have to say that I'm gutted that my cost of electric is about to double (as fixed rate ends next week) for our heat pump.
There is no gas here so it's not an option for me. The cost of electric production (100% renewable) has not altered so am feeling rather ripped off by Octopus.Hmm, if your price is about to double then rather than be pissed off I'd think you should be feeling rather smug and pleased with yourself at having paid so little for so long! :devil:

Octopus can't do much about the way electricity is priced, and AFAICT they are trying to change that.

You could always use bottled gas or oil, although I'm rather pleased that you don't. :bigsmile:]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301764#Comment_301764 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301764#Comment_301764 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 13:57:29 +0100 fostertom Posted By: djhOctopus can't do much about the way electricity is pricedOh, what tough luck for them.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301772#Comment_301772 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301772#Comment_301772 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 18:45:53 +0100 fostertom Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301773#Comment_301773 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301773#Comment_301773 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 19:35:44 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary IMO it would be better to de-couple the production costs across the industry and charge accordingly.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301774#Comment_301774 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301774#Comment_301774 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 19:44:43 +0100 fostertom Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301776#Comment_301776 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301776#Comment_301776 Fri, 02 Jun 2023 21:35:50 +0100 WillInAberdeen
So the increase in green tariffs profits is mostly diverted to the treasury rather than the retailer or customer, then being paid out again on capping everyone's domestic gas and electricity bills at the exact same rate, hence
So much for market competition

People buying 100% green electricity for their heat pumps, are effectively paying extra windfall tax to subsidise other people buying fossil gas for their gas boilers!

Bit of a fudge, and surprisingly interventionist by Truss/Kwarteng/Hunt for setting it up, but nobody complained at the time...!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/17/chancellor-extends-energy-windfall-tax-low-carbon-generators]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301783#Comment_301783 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301783#Comment_301783 Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:13:00 +0100 djh Posted By: fostertomBecause they (and the rest) apparently can't down-price their electricity, despite its production getting cheaper by the month, revenue is that much greater - boo hoo. So much for market competition.Maybe read a bit wider, Tom.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301785#Comment_301785 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301785#Comment_301785 Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:41:16 +0100 revor Posted By: Dominic CooneyThere is no gas here so it's not an option for me.
We have gas in bottles propane. We spend less than £300 pa used to be less. We had considered HP but quote was £14k so we put our efforts into spending on a fabric first approach. If you get that bit right and are nicely positioned to make use of solar gain one does not need a piece of sophisticated kit with its inherent expense to heat your house. I think there is a goldilocks area where a HP is suitable and it will be somewhere between what we have achieved and a poorly insulated/constructed property. Our previous house 1898 semi on 3 floor plus a cellar in a conservation area we could not have got it to a position to make it energy efficient. Remove conditions of being in a conservation area and we would have had some chance. Rather than drive everyone down the HP solution we should find a way of households having a carbon footprint target that is if something could be so designed. The country might buy into that, people like choice, driving HP down their throat does not work. Often referred to, if you have no choice you are stuck, a choice of 2 a dilemma, choice of 3+ you now have real choice. Powers that be need to wake up to that.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301789#Comment_301789 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301789#Comment_301789 Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:53:48 +0100 fostertom Posted By: djhMaybe read a bit wider, TomI read lots (too much!) and am happy to give anyone the benefit of a snapshot or detail, whatever their level is. Others do similiar kindly for me.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301799#Comment_301799 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301799#Comment_301799 Sat, 03 Jun 2023 18:17:11 +0100 bhommels Posted By: WillInAberdeen
Edit : and how come the price ratio in Netherlands is so far different from in Germany and Belgium, yet grids interconnect? Not many heatpumps in NL if we take the Telegraph's graphic at face value...
I think they messed up. I know quite a few people in the Netherlands and they all pay substantially more per kWh than we in the UK do, mainly due to an energy usage tax/levy that the Telegraph must have overlooked.

BTW Telegraph readers might as well think global warming does not exist if you go by their content.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301849#Comment_301849 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301849#Comment_301849 Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:51:01 +0100 gustyturbine Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301862#Comment_301862 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301862#Comment_301862 Tue, 06 Jun 2023 23:10:50 +0100 Jeff B Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: djhOctopus can't do much about the way electricity is priced
Oh, what tough luck for them.

This is the same reply I got from Octopus when I mentioned to them that the reason I signed up with them was because they offer 100% renewable electricity i.e. they are at the mercy of the international gas price which in turn sets the price of electricity.

I might be being naive here but AIUI the national grid knows the make up of electricity generation minute by minute 24/7 - i.e. how much from wind, solar, gas etc. Therefore it should be possible to work out the true cost of a day's generation and then for Octopus (or any other supplier) to use that info to apply that to my bill over a month period.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301864#Comment_301864 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301864#Comment_301864 Wed, 07 Jun 2023 09:25:21 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: Jeff BI might be being naive here but AIUI the national grid knows the make up of electricity generation minute by minute 24/7 - i.e. how much from wind, solar, gas etc. Therefore it should be possible to work out the true cost of a day's generation and then for Octopus (or any other supplier) to use that info to apply that to my bill over a month period.
And then there is the will to do it - which as AFAICS is totally lacking either from the industry or the government.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301865#Comment_301865 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301865#Comment_301865 Wed, 07 Jun 2023 10:03:25 +0100 djh Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301867#Comment_301867 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301867#Comment_301867 Wed, 07 Jun 2023 10:46:18 +0100 fostertom Posted By: Jeff Bit should be possible to work out the true cost of a day's generation and then for Octopus (or any other supplier) to use that info to apply that to my bill over a month periodOpen-market pricing very shock-prone to the consumer - in that Texas blizzard, domestic customers on that kind of tarrif got hit for spot prices that went near-infinite for a while, leaving them liable for ruinous multi-$10k bills.]]> Heat Pump Gate http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301868#Comment_301868 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17852&Focus=301868#Comment_301868 Wed, 07 Jun 2023 11:07:00 +0100 WillInAberdeen
If you are willing to take a risk, Octopus offer their agile and tracker tariffs which go up and down with the market as you described. So averagef 18-19p per unit in May, much cheaper than the default 34p tariffs. There's no guarantee they will stay that way! There is an upper limit, so you won't pay $10k..

Most suppliers have been forced by Ofgem to pre purchase their electricity up to a year ahead, at the prevailing market rate. This means your supplier is typically selling you electricity that they bought many months ago, at the high wholesale prices there were back then.

This is because many other firms had not done that, and so were caught out when the wholesale prices shot up faster than Ofgem would allow them to raise the retail price, so many went bust, taking us back to a dominant Big Six and killing off innovation.]]>