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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2008
     
    Hi, not been about for awhile, so perhaps one of the miriad of experts on the forum might aready have given an answer:)
    I have been trying for a while to get some sense out of official sources about the thermal bridging details and in particular enhanced ones that will give 0.4 rather than the accredited 0.8 in SAP.
    Does anybody know how these can be simply done, people keep talking about thermal modelling!!! With other's saying enhanced details coming soon!!!
    Any advice gratefully received, polite of course:)
  1.  
    Peter, What does the 0.4 represent?
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Hi Mike, my mistake too much of a hurry, it's 0.04 and this is the psi value of a thermal bridging detail, for example this could be a window head/lintel or a ground floor to ext wall junction, all these details and psi values are totalled and averaged to give a y value that you can enter in SAP. The currently accredited Part L thermal bridging details allow a y value of 0.08 to be entered into SAP.
    You can work out you own y value by individually entering psi values but the issue I have is how to do this it seems to require thermal modelling and a lot of cost, but whenever I go to a presentation on enhanced building performance and achieving CSH 3 they always claim that this is the way forward but when quized they can not give an answer, it all seems a dark art to me.
    We are currently involved with a CSH Level 6 home and in order to get the HLP to 0.8 we need to use improved y value of 0.04, but nobody can tell me how to make this step!
    Very frustrating as they have been talking about this since SAP 2005 was first concieved!
    I know this is a pretty boring subject but it has the potential to make achieving CSH levels a bit easier, ok I'll reserve judgement on that statement until I have seen the details.
    Any help gratefully received
    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Peter- what construction system are you using?
    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgePeter, What does the 0.4 represent?


    0.4w/m2/k same as U-values.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Get a peek at the book " Details for Passive Houses " if you can
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Matt, construction is timber frame.

    Tony, will see if I can find a copy but will it really answer my issue re psi values?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Yep it answers all possible technical questions in full
    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2008
     
    Peter - at risk of being told off (as I work for NBT) - look at Pavatex Diffutherm or Pavaclad on timber frame - our 'standard' psi/Y is 0.02w/m2/k...

    http://www.natural-building.co.uk/pavatex_timber_frame_wall_systems.htm
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    ..... *rant* cavity *rant* breather membrane *rant* third party certification *rant* .....
    • CommentAuthorMatt
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    :rolling::rolling::rolling:
  2.  
    I think that people are confusing the psi value with the Y-value. The psi-value is the linear thermal transmittance (measured in W/mK). The Y-value is the total heat loss attributed to the linear thermal transmittance divided by the surface area of the thermal envelope (measured in W/m2K).

    In a refurbed interwar semi-detached cavity wall home the Y-value is about 0.15W/m2K and in 2006 regs the Accredited details achieve 0.08W/m2K. In the UK, due to the calculation methodology, it is increasingly difficult to get below a Y-value of 0.03W/m2K but it can be done with good design and workmanship. I understand that the EST are developing details that will achieve 0.4W/m2K. (NOTE: PassivHaus Psi values are measured externally and thus can achieve thermal bridges of <0.01W/mK and a, in the Germans used a Y-value it would have a Y-value of ~0.003W/m2K).

    With a high performance envelope, to rely upon a Y-value greater than 0.4W/m2K (i.e. Accredited details Y-value 0.8), is not cost effective. This is because in order to achieve the energy performance target, say 15kWh/m2/annum, the heat loss via the thermal bridges, becomes of disproportionate impact i.e. a wall U-value of 0.15W/m2K with a Y-value of 0.8W/m2K is degraded to that of 0.234W/m2K a reduction in performance of 53.6% (compared to a Y-value of 0.3W/m2K a mean reduction in performance of 27%).

    In terms of design when seeking to achieve these performance targets you need to compensate for these additional losses as a consequence the calculated U-value of building elements would have to be improved; thus incurring the penalty of wider foundations, deeper excavation, additional labour etc., all of which result in additional cost (cost that can be avoided by using more appropriate Y-values). Thus addressing thermal bridging means good cost effective value engineering and, assuming appropriate skills on site, greater certainty of achieving the designed building performance.

    From my own calcs I am mindful that using a notional semi-detached house (I understand that it's the BRE standard semi) the AECB y-value = ~0.027W/m2K (because the AECB have not currently studies the party wall condition I used accredited details for party junctions.)

    Further improvements?
    Sticking with the accredited details for party junctions, with a little tweaking by using some PH concepts can theoretically be dropped to about ~0.02W/m2K and perhaps even as low as 0.015 W/m2K! i.e. a 50-66% improvement upon EST and an 75-81% improvement upon Accredited details.

    If you make some reasonable assumptions about possible improvements to the party wall details the y-value could get as low as 0.012W/m2K and perhaps even 0.008W/m2K. This is results in an improvement upon EST targets of 70-80% and an 85-90% improvement upon Accredited details…. Of course how easily these calculations translate to on site performance is another matter.

    Unless relying upon some generic details, such as AECB Standards, that have been independently calculated then the psi-value for each junction needs to be calculated independently and fed into the modelling software. Ideally this is done using tools such as Trisco, Sisco or Bisco from Physibel .....saddly they don't do one called Disco ;-) .....as this will allow geometric thermal bridging to be appropriately considered.

    Hope this helps.

    Mark
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