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Building Regulations and Standards: 30 min Fire Doors (FD30)

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      CommentAuthorecoworrier
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
     
    Pricing up a job at the moment and it calls for the replacement of five Victorian 4 panel doors with FD30's.
    Would it be possible to convert these doors?
    The Hinges and fixtures are easily replaced and intumescent fire and smoke seals could be fitted, but what about the
    structure of the door. (apart from screwing 9.5 plasterboard and 3mm ply on both sides)

    What a waste otherwise.:sad:
  2.  
    Loft Conversion Eh? Sad new requirement isn't it. I did hear something on the grape vine about intumescent paint - don't know if it would be acceptable though - interested to find out
    • CommentAuthorskywalker
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
     
    we managed to get away with one layer of plasterboard on RSJ's in our old house by using intumescent paint - building inspector thought it was just fine.

    I suspect with your victorian doors you may be left with replacement. Not sure if your 'Barry Bucknell' job would make it to FD30 spec.

    S.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
     
    I have heard that intumescent paint is ok for fireproofing old pine doors

    There is also a case for asking if they can remain

    The fire regs are out of touch with where we are today too. With linked smoke detectors the problems are no longer the same as they used to be 20 yrs ago.
    • CommentAuthorskywalker
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
     
    That would be good.

    I was more concerned with the panel thickness, even with flame retardant paint it would be hard to see them being regarded as safe. (I'm not sure but I think intumescent= insulating layer produced on heating so good for steel, flame retardant = releases non combustable/extinguishing gases)

    If your doing a loft is it not possible to re design so that one door is enough?

    s.
    •  
      CommentAuthorecoworrier
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2008
     
    Thanks for your comments so far, in formative as ever.
    Yeah it is a Loft, not something I usually work on, it's for the in-laws so I have relented.

    Could it be re designed?
    I don't know, the doors are for every room leading off the stair well, which in this 3 bed house, is all of them.
    I assumed it was to keep the easiest means of escape clear (fire & smoke free) to allow escape from the loft room.
    Am I wrong?
    According to Building and construction handbook 6th edition,
    A door's resistance to fire is measured by:
    1 Insulation-resistance to thermal transmittance. BS 476-20&22; Fire tests on building materials and structures.
    2 Integrity - resistance in minutes to the penetration of flame and hot gases under simulated fire conditions.
    Typical door details are 83*38mm framing with 165mm middle rail, 9.5mm plasterboard lining to both faces
    (flush with framing) and 3mm ply facing both sides.

    So I guess the question is wether inducement paint gives enough 'resistance to thermal transmittance' for 30 mins.
    I shall investigate further.
    :neutral:
    • CommentAuthorskywalker
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2008
     
    Loft extensions like yours that I have come accross have a door at the bottom and top of the access stairs to the loft.
    I may be wrong but I thought it was to stop the chimney effect (in part). Some also have an espape route onto the roof.

    I'd have a chat with you local building control person, very helpful people in my experience.

    S.
    • CommentAuthorbatkinson
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2008
     
    English Heritage produce a good guide to up grading doors to give fire resistance
    Failing that there is a company called Envirograh have many innovative products including some for upgrading doors
    •  
      CommentAuthorSpike
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2008
     
    Sealmaster do a product called FireFace which is an intumescent veneer stuck to the panels - I think you need to remove beads and put them back on top of teh veneer. This is intended as a paintable surface so should be failry undetectable. You will need also to put intumescent strip/smokeseals around the edges of the door.
  10.  
    I've mocked up panel door sticking beading to the cheap FD30 panel doors
    but the result wasn't that great
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2008
     
    Aaarrgh!
  12.  
    I won a court case over 20 years ago on fire regs. I was helped by Simon Ham, a consultant who at that time served on the BRAC quango which set building and fire regs.

    In fact there is an unpublished report in which the Fire Research Station conducted tests on an old house, finally setting it on fire, to test fire rersistance of existing traditional construction. This showed that by and large the Buiding Regs were nonsense in so far as traditional buildings met required standards without the need for significant upgrades. This was (and remains) contrary to official propaganda, since if it were popularly known there would be a lot of red-faced officials, unemployed buiders and architects, and a slump in sales amongst manufacturers.

    In short, traditional panel doors are 30min fire adequate providing they are in sound condition and providing the stop beads are upgraded and fit well.

    Incidentally, the late Prof PG Moore - a very distinguished academic and statistician - undertook a detailed study of the impact of new fire reg upgrades in 'public buildings' which was imposed about 20 years ago. He reached two startling conclusions. (1) the expenditure of about a billion pounds had produced no measurable improvement in risks and (2) the risks to the public were in any event so tiny that there was no rational justification for the legisalation and its resulting costs.

    Remember, its only our money they are wasting.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDAI_EVANS
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2008
     
    It depends on your local Building Control some are rather picky what you can or can't use, an example of which is the intrumescent paint.
    One of our clients is a joiner and made himself some outstanding quality solid wood doors not knowing that he was going to have to make them Fire doors (made them before telling us anything about them). When I contacted the building control office they said the only way we could get the doors through regs was to do a test, basically take one of his 'retail at £600' doors and set fire to it.
    However the officer did say that if the doors were existing and of historical value and high quality, then options could be opened up to us, but didn't go into much more detail than that.

    My suggestion would be to contact your local Building Control Office and see what they'll except.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
     
    What about fitting a domestic sprinkler system instead?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008 edited
     
    We were told one of the doors on our new build would need to be 30 min rated. Our doors came from JBkind and they make 30 min rated versions of several of their standard range. They look identical to their standard door except for a slight increase in thickness. Treated with Osmo hardwax the look very nice..

    Examples:
    http://www.jbkind.com/productdetails.asp?parent=60
    http://www.jbkind.com/gallery/ROSS%20ON%20WYE%20YOXALL%20+%20E-14M-12-6VM%20006.jpg

    http://www.jbkind.com/productdetails.asp?parent=51
    http://www.jbkind.com/gallery/Grimsley%20(400%20x%20600).jpg
    http://www.jbkind.com/gallery/E14MN-bathroom.jpg

    More info..

    http://www.jbkind.com/page.asp?page=royale-information
    •  
      CommentAuthorecoworrier
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
     
    Thank chaps, I'm feeling a little more optimistic. :bigsmile:
    If I get the gig I will have a chat to BC and see what can be done.

    I will keep you posted.
  17.  
    Looking at the doors in my house - I can see that it is the panels that would fail the 30 min crterion. How about this solution: Take off the panel beading on one side of the door. Overlay a very thin sheet of aluminium or stainless steel capable of giving the 30 minute rating, then cover with a thin timber board of choice and replace with thinner beading. Alternatively paint the meatal with a timber grain mimic.

    Not at all ideal but better than changing the doors. I can hear Tom's AAARGGHH from here:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorhowdytom
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
     
    I would just like to add to mikes posting... paint the metal sheet with brown lacquer and use that wonderful 20th C combing technique.. not
    tom
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
     
    A fire door is only a fire door if it is accreditted as such after being subjected to testing to British standards. As someone who makes doors, it does my head in, but that is how it stands.

    I thought protecting the means of escape to a 2nd floor meant fitting one fire door to the base of the new stairs plus fitting self closers or rising butts to the other doors that exit to the stairwell?

    What about domestic sprinkler systems as a trade off?

    I know of one local case, where an old lady in a nursing home, lost her fingers in a self closing fire door. How important are fire doors, given the inconveniance and danger of a heavy spring loaded door?
  20.  
    Richie, I'm sure you're right about the accreditation, but all of the requirements are down to the individual discretion of the BCO, who can choose to relax them. Most that I have come accross are reasonable sorts if you can come up with a sensible solution to a problem like this.

    I like the idea of sprinklers as a trade off. Do you know of any being accepted in lieu of doors.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDaren
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008
     
    Richy,

    The b'regs requirements changed last year such that the doors within the stairwell only need to be FD20, but these are generally not fitted well, so it's better to install an FD30.
    We have used sprinklers as compensation for not having a protected stairwell giving direct esscape at ground floor level, but, you generally still need to install the fire doors. Also, at a cost of around £1500 for the sprinklers and the need to install a 32mm dedicated water main at around another £1000 sprinklers are not a cheap option.
    We have a document somewhere produced by Cornwall county fire brigade about upgrading standard doors to fire doors and have also used envirograf products to do the same job.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008 edited
     
    That's sprinklers out then! any chance of the title of that document Daren? I searched the Cornwall Fire Brigade website but no luck!

    I managed to find details of the English Heritage publication batkinson referred to above http://www.specify-it.com/CIS/Doc.aspx?AuthCode=&DocNum=251605

    Subscription only unfortunately
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2008
     
    Posted By: DAI_EVANSWhen I contacted the building control office they said the only way we could get the doors through regs was to do a test, basically take one of his 'retail at £600' doors and set fire to it.


    LOL. I'd be interested to know how long one of my doors would last, but I'm not letting anyone try :)
    Oak is known to be pretty slow to burn - it chars and then the carbon layer protects the wood below. I would imagine that a counterboarded oak door would last a long time but I've no real knowledge.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDaren
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2008
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Mike George</cite>That's sprinklers out then! any chance of the title of that document Daren? I searched the Cornwall Fire Brigade website but no luck!</blockquote>

    Mike,

    I'll try and have a look on monday and let you know. It's something that I had around 15 years ago, but I think that I've still got it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDaren
    • CommentTimeMar 17th 2008
     
    Mike,

    See attached, produced by Devon CC, not Cornwall. It's 25 years old, but probably still relevant. If you want to use it, you ought to get agreement from building control.

    I hope it's helpful.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeMar 17th 2008 edited
     
    Thanks Daren, that's realy useful. I may soon have reason to ask Building Control to cast their eye over it. Will let you know how I get on.
    • CommentAuthorPlot Hunter
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: batkinsonEnglish Heritage produce a good guide to up grading doors to give fire resistance
    Failing that there is a company called Envirograh have many innovative products including some for upgrading doors

    You could also try Cotswold Intumescent Services, www.fireproof.co.uk, they will supply a specification to bring doors to the required standard and certificate this, or will do the job for you. I know of at least one case where they've brought doors to FD30 on a Grade II listed to the satisfaction of both Conservation and BC. They cost in the region of £150 AFAIK.
  28.  
    Fire resisting doorsets by upgrading
    WIS 1 - 32. 4pp. 2005. £12.00 (TRADA
    members £6.00).
    Gives guidance on assessing the
    suitability of upgrading doors to
    20 or 30 minute fire resistance.

    Any good?
  29.  
    I actually have the pdf on my desktop...
  30.  
    would it help if I posted an LABC guidence note on this? or is that norty...

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