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Housing - New Build: Sliding Patio Doors without air leaks and thermal bridging

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2013
     
    Hoping to have sliding patio doors on our build, nothing fancy, over large or folding etc., just a simple 2 pane affair - one fixed half other slides open - in a 2.4m opening. But what impact will this have on air tightness and avoiding thermal bridging? Are sliding doors generally extra leaky? Would a tilt and slide be better, being pulled into the frame when closed, than a single track slider? How about lift and slide?

    Open to recommendations for uPVC, aluminium or ali-clad products - it is near the coast and I am not prepared to do the maintenance required by timber (have painted windows and I don't want to have to do so again!). But of course I want the best u values I can get (within cost limits). What would good values for a patio door be? What features should I look for?
  2.  
    Lift and slide can reach impressive U values now - down to passive house levels. That's what we're looking at now.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2013
     
    Posted By: GreenfishAre sliding doors generally extra leaky? Would a tilt and slide be better, being pulled into the frame when closed, than a single track slider? How about lift and slide?

    Sliding seals are generally worse than compression seals. And compression seals also depend on the stiffness of the components and the design of the latches that do the compression. So tilt-and-slide or lift-and-slide should be better than normal sliding doors, and I believe tilt-and-slide is the best. But it would be best to get airtightness test results for the actual doors you have in mind, though that's not always the easiest thing in the world!
  4.  
    I've got Rehau lift and slide in a 2.4m x 2.1m opening which are made of fibre reinforced plastic and meet PH U values and airtightness. They work well, look good but aren't cheap.
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2013
     
    Posted By: PeterStarckI've got Rehau lift and slide in a 2.4m x 2.1m opening which are made of fibre reinforced plastic and meet PH U values and airtightness. They work well, look good but aren't cheap.
    Since that sounds like what we want, where did you get them and what did they cost?
    • CommentAuthorSwarm
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2013
     
    I found this Rehau video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSpthGHEf-0

    I'd never seen this type of door before and am also interested in info on pricing Peter.
    • CommentAuthorSwarm
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2013
     
    This is also quite interesting: http://www.passivhausstore.co.uk/energate-slide-tilt-and-fold-doors.html

    Can't seem to find much discussion of Energate though.
  8.  
    They came from Solent Glazing, Portsmouth and the contact was Laimons Berzins. The price I paid was £1562.53 + VAT. That price is very much lower than they are now though because the doors were part of a large order for the whole of the house. It doesn't hurt to ask though!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 6th 2013
     
    Couldn't open one of those doors without first calling out “cabin doors to manual”. ;-)
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013
     
    Getting quotes for tilt and slide doors, let alone well insulated ones, is proving interesting...

    Multiple other suppliers have said they can't do them and definitely can't do them in 3G. The explanation is that the roller mechanism fails, can't take the weight, will corrode in a coastal environment, they are unsuitable for a family (children break them) or they just aren't fashionable any more (would I like some folding doors instead?). Not sure what to make of this. Perhaps I have gone to the wrong people, perhaps they have had bad experiences (fitting cheap products?), perhaps it is sales talk?

    I am still awaiting for a reply for the Geneo doors like Peter has. I know Internorm do them but I am too afraid of the price! Anyone else with "cabin doors to manual" style doors that they would recommend?
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013
     
    Greenfish,

    have you looked at German or Swiss manufactures?

    Jonti
  12.  
    I don't have prices yet, and I'm looking at wood/alu or alu rather than UPVC but of the ones I've seen so far the better value brands appear to be:

    Kloeber and www.greenstepswindows.com
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013 edited
     
    Just looked on the kloeber site and cant find any mention of U values anywhere.
    Greenstep didn't answer the phone.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013 edited
     
    GU do the hardware for 3G sliding glass doors, up to huge leaf sizes, and provide almost full joinery drawings to suit.
    http://www.coastalcsi.co.uk/brochure.php?brochure=main
    supply the GU gear in UK. You could get a UK joiner to make, to the GU drawings. Or Markus Becker <m.becker@becker-sohn.com> will make them - I got incredible price a few yrs ago, unfortunately project cancelled.
    Pic is of superb doors to this design, made by Hajom, but they don't seem interested any more.
  15.  
    Becker-Sohn windows now have a "UK sales partner" :

    http://www.livingwoodwindows.co.uk/becker.html

    Again, on my list but i've not got as far as getting a quote.
    • CommentAuthorcoastal
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2013 edited
     
    I agreed with the comments above - Lift & Slide doors have outstanding U-values, and the weathersealing is particularly excellant, especially when using Deventer seals http://www.deventer-profielen.nl

    Coastal have now launched the Siegenia-Aubi HS Portal Lift & Slide System. See http://www.coastal-group.com/hspschemes.pdf for a list of the capabilities with vast opening sizes.

    It is also now available with optional +/- 3mm adjustability.
  17.  
    Word of warning ...
    We got a 3g slider (2.7w by 2.1h) from Albo (Czech) delivered for £3000 ish a year back.
    http://www.albo.cz/english/sliding-glass-walls/
    Our sliding half is internal to the fixed half so when the SW wind gets up the two halves "gap" and let in a gale!
    Tried contacting Albo but so far no come-back.
    "Life's too short" so decided to retrofit a simple flange-plus-seal to the sliding half, that pulls in and overlaps the gap when closed ........
    In other words have a good nosey at the design of the seal between the two sections when they're closed!
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2013
     
    I read the other day that large sliding patio doors,-lift and slid,-tilt and slide etc. can be prone to problems.
    These systems almost exclusively are bottom rolling, and usually on nylon polyamide rollers, I guess for lovely silent movement. Problem is, or may be, that the rollers flatten when stood in one position for a long time especially on large doors with very heavy 3G glazing. The resultant odd shaped rollers then don't move smoothly.
    Q. Anyone had any experience, does anyone produce bottom rolling systems with steel rolling gear.
  19.  
    Just noticed some bloke on a sit-on mower in Fostertom's pic above ... I'm fortunate in being my own "client" so I don't have to watch all my efforts with "eco" / "sustainable" building activity going up in (blue) smoke!
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2014
     
    Bit of an old thread. Mike did you get any joy from Albo?
    Thanks.

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