Green Building Forum - Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:33:35 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298325#Comment_298325 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298325#Comment_298325 Thu, 20 Oct 2022 19:27:17 +0100 WillInAberdeen https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/20/national-grid-to-pay-households-more-to-use-off-peak-power

This will be interesting! Good for battery owners.

"National Grid has significantly increased its financial incentive for households that shift their power usage away from peak times as part of a renewed effort to prevent rolling power cuts."

"Its electricity system operator (ESO) has increased the incentive sixfold to £3 per kilowatt hour to encourage households to use their washing machines and appliances late at night, which could mean typical savings of £100 this winter."]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298342#Comment_298342 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298342#Comment_298342 Fri, 21 Oct 2022 14:18:29 +0100 djh Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298347#Comment_298347 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298347#Comment_298347 Fri, 21 Oct 2022 15:04:18 +0100 philedge Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298350#Comment_298350 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298350#Comment_298350 Fri, 21 Oct 2022 16:40:39 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: djhI have mixed feelings about this. We already run our washing machine overnight and we don't use heating (space or DHW) during the peak hours, we heat mostly overnight. So it seems a bit unfair to bribe people who weren't already doing that to start now. OTOH I suppose it will reduce the evening peak somewhat, so it's a good thing from that point of view.
Are the payments only for those who change their power usage habit or is it available to anyone who doesn't use peak time power - even if they never did ?]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298352#Comment_298352 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298352#Comment_298352 Fri, 21 Oct 2022 18:00:52 +0100 djh Posted By: philedgeFish and chips for 2 is around £15 ish so theyd need to pay way more than a few £ for us to have salads for tea til next spring. Not that we'd qualify without a smart meter!I think the idea is to nominate particular days when there is a forecast of insufficient power, and that the number of days might be around four. But I'm not sure. But yes, we have the same difficulty - we've moved to microwaving more things already, and we don't have a smart meter.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryAre the payments only for those who change their power usage habit or is it available to anyone who doesn't use peak time power - even if they never did ?
AIUI the payments are for a reduction over preceding usage, but I haven't checked recently.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298355#Comment_298355 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298355#Comment_298355 Sat, 22 Oct 2022 10:14:29 +0100 WillInAberdeen
We've all had the option of E7/E10 to save 10s of pence per unit, but only a minority have done so, so they'll need to offer more incentive.

Probably the majority of people who are already low-peaktime-users are those with fossil heating, which is always cheaper per unit already. Don't see any need to reward those.

Don't think many people will shift their cooking or TV away from early evening, as that's a hassle for not very much saving. Probably this is aimed more at those with EV chargers and immersion heaters, where the savings could add up to enough to overcome inertia.

A couple of years ago it looked like time-of-use tariffs were about to become mainstream, but the price cap scheme and the failure of the smaller suppliers, seems to have killed off a lot of choice in the market.

£15 for a fish supper for two sounds pretty good! Is £20 these days around here.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298368#Comment_298368 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298368#Comment_298368 Sat, 22 Oct 2022 16:29:24 +0100 djh Posted By: WillInAberdeenWe've all had the option of E7/E10 to save 10s of pence per unitAs a rule of thumb, I think you need to have over half your consumption at night to recover the extra cost of the expensive daytime units. We were using 55% overnight, because that's when the space heating and DHW heating operates from the mains in winter. I expect the percentage to increase a bit now we've got an EV. But generally I'd think people in conventional houses would need to be using storage heaters to benefit from E7.

Don't think many people will shift their cooking or TV away from early evening, as that's a hassle for not very much saving. Probably this is aimed more at those with EV chargers and immersion heaters, where the savings could add up to enough to overcome inertia.
You may well be right but I don't understand why anybody wouldn't already charge their EV and run their immersion at night, for climate reasons. So this feels like a quick fix that will reward climate deniers and selfish people for stepping into line, and hopefully get replaced with a more sensible scheme in time.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298420#Comment_298420 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298420#Comment_298420 Tue, 25 Oct 2022 15:54:28 +0100 Dominic Cooney Posted By: WillInAberdeen£15 for a fish supper for two sounds pretty good! Is £20 these days around here.

crikey, where do you lot live?!
We pay £8.30 for 2 x spring rolls (one each at £2.20 - we don't eat fish) and a large portion of chips between us.
There are still enough chips left over for a chip butty each the next day.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298421#Comment_298421 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298421#Comment_298421 Tue, 25 Oct 2022 17:59:07 +0100 fostertom Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298433#Comment_298433 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298433#Comment_298433 Wed, 26 Oct 2022 23:57:12 +0100 WillInAberdeen https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/10/octopus-ovo-energy-pay-to-cut-electricity-use/

Some info on which suppliers are going to participate (most of them).]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298435#Comment_298435 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=298435#Comment_298435 Thu, 27 Oct 2022 09:43:12 +0100 revor
Posted By: WillInAberdeen£15 for a fish supper for two sounds pretty good! Is £20 these days around here.


Its down to the high wages following the oil boom.

Here it is £16 for 2 including mushy peas]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299829#Comment_299829 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299829#Comment_299829 Mon, 23 Jan 2023 18:29:41 +0000 WillInAberdeen
Our supplier is sadly one of the few to not participate. (Edit: we did defer cooking until after 6 anyway).]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299831#Comment_299831 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299831#Comment_299831 Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:34:36 +0000 RobL Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299834#Comment_299834 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299834#Comment_299834 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 07:22:27 +0000 cjard
Spring roll not really comparable to the price of a fish these days.. 6 quid+ around me, per fish. I'm mostly plant based now, not primarily for financial reasons though]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299841#Comment_299841 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=299841#Comment_299841 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:03:53 +0000 Dominic Cooney Posted By: cjardI'm mostly plant based now

Same here. Almost zero meat or dairy now for environmental reasons (not because of fluffy bunnykins) and haven't eaten fish for many years, it having been quote obvious to me the overfishing, by-catch, grinding up seafood to feed to livestock or to turn into fertiliser, devastation of the seabed by trawlers, all complete madness and unsustainable.
I take an Omega-3 capsule made from algae to cut out the fish part of the cycle.
Precision fermentation is the way forward for sustainable proteins - including milk proteins, resulting in cow-free cheese and ice cream etc.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301379#Comment_301379 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301379#Comment_301379 Fri, 28 Apr 2023 21:42:59 +0100 WillInAberdeen
https://www.britishgas.co.uk/energy/peak-save/sunday.html

Does look like wholesale electricity is as cheap in the afternoon as it is overnight now, must be all the PV kicking in for the summer.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301380#Comment_301380 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301380#Comment_301380 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 07:43:48 +0100 revor Posted By: WillInAberdeenDoes look like wholesale electricity is as cheap in the afternoon as it is overnight now, must be all the PV kicking in for the summer.

This last month my export payment daily average ranged from 9p to18p per unit with ave of 12p. Against paying 35p per unit and 57p daily charge after energy price guarantee. The "list" price 49.7p kWh.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301382#Comment_301382 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301382#Comment_301382 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 09:34:40 +0100 WillInAberdeen
But your export tariff didn't pre purchase your PV from you last year when the price was high, they're just paying you based on the present market price, which has now fallen lower.


If your import tariff didn't pre purchase electricity last year then the price has fallen a lot. Eg octopus agile are supplying for 24p today average, but with a low of 18p this afternoon when they expect there will be lots of PV on the grid and available for import from Europe. Afternoon electricity is a little cheaper than overnight electricity (20-22p) and much cheaper than evening (34p)

UK peak PV generation last week was 7 GW, not bad for April! Mostly increasing with solar farms now, rather than rooftops, which is driving the prices lower.]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301383#Comment_301383 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301383#Comment_301383 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 09:37:42 +0100 fostertom https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/26/number-of-uk-homes-installing-rooftop-solar-panels-highest-in-over-seven-years]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301384#Comment_301384 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301384#Comment_301384 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 13:14:23 +0100 djh Posted By: WillInAberdeenMost people are still paying 35p for electricity because their tariff pre-purchased electricity last year (hedged) while the price was very high, consumers are paying the high price for that pre-purchasing now.And for the avoidance of doubt, that is a good thing. Those companies that didn't pre-purchase were the ones that went bankrupt and that we all are paying for now :(]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301385#Comment_301385 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301385#Comment_301385 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 14:15:16 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Octopus offer a range of tariffs including Agile (not pre-purchased, so the risk is on the consumer) and more standard tariffs which are pre-purchased (so the consumer has certainty and pays a higher price). They didn't go bankrupt.

You are thinking of companies like Bulb which didn't pre-purchase, but also didn't pass the risk to their consumers.

They went bankrupt, were bought by the government who also didn't pre-purchase (despite criticism from the opposition) and hence saved a lot of money when they sold Bulb on to Octopus.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/29/bulb-bailout-may-cost-uk-government-billions-less-than-feared-says-watchdog

Edit to add: pre-purchasing at last year's prices has added many 10s of £bns to energy bills, £40bn of which has been paid by the taxpayer through the energy price guarantee scheme. Most of those £bns ended up as excess profits for international energy companies, some of which were windfall taxed. In hindsight this has cost taxpayers and billpayers a lot more £bns than we spent on bailing out failed companies (Bulb ended up 'fiscally neutral'), so hedging was an expensive mistake. But hindsight is always a wonderful thing!]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301386#Comment_301386 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301386#Comment_301386 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 14:35:42 +0100 WillInAberdeen https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/26/number-of-uk-homes-installing-rooftop-solar-panels-highest-in-over-seven-years

That's a good amount of rooftop PV installed, 0.25 GW.

But for context, last year 2.2 GW of newbuild solar farms pre-sold their output to the government through the CfD scheme, at 4.599p per kWh, and a similar number are going ahead without pre sales. There are something like 80GW of solar farms at various stages of planning, obvs they can not all get built.

So we can expect the trend to continue towards lower prices during spring/summer afternoons, both for homeowners trying to export their PV, and for people buying electricity once the present imbalance in the pre purchased supplies is unwound.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1103022/contracts-for-difference-allocation-round-4-results.pdf]]> Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301387#Comment_301387 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301387#Comment_301387 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 14:39:56 +0100 fostertom Homes with smart meters to be paid £3 per kWh to take strain off power grid http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301388#Comment_301388 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17614&Focus=301388#Comment_301388 Sat, 29 Apr 2023 15:01:23 +0100 WillInAberdeen Gas is still the marginal fuel price which sets the spot electricity price, but is being displaced by PV and (mostly) offshore wind.


The Review of Electricity Market Arrangements will decouple electricity prices from gas, but is happening very slowly, one consultation finished and another is promised.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/review-of-electricity-market-arrangements#full-publication-update-history]]>