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General: Where are we at with "FIWI" (Viking House?)

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    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2016 edited
     
    As in the title, how is this compact mhrv developing/stacking up in use?
    Has it spawned any other forms or other applications?
    Should have done a search first as now see there's been a short thread on this last month ... Still curious though as we have open plan, and no enthusiasm for ducting!
    Possibly good tech for cold weather camper van??
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2016
     
    Interestingly I got an email with details of a very similar unit from another company, unfortunately I deleted it!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2016 edited
     
    Triassic, please do try and remember?!

    Me to - would like to hear any experience.

    The snag I found with another such (but much cheaper, lower-tech) single-unit MHRV unit, the Envirovent HeatSava, is worth a read http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10274&page=3 . Not, I think to be positioned in the bathroom, tho at first thought that seems the ideal place.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2016 edited
     
    As I think I mentioned in the other thread, as it stands the FIWIs are not permitted under code in the UK because of the purge rates required in a single wet room. So you can have one, but you need individual ventilation in the bathrooms etc as well.

    AIUI.
    • CommentAuthorCav8andrew
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2016
     
    Is the alternative product the LUNOtherm as advertised on the Partel site ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2016
     
    I'm perhaps getting ready to 'negotiate' with Bldg Insp on this point - if convinced that they do in fact do the job.

    'the purge rates' reqd' - isn't this part of the Approved Documents - i.e. 'one way' that the regulation may be fulfilled? - so 'other ways' are not ruled out.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2016
     
    Posted By: Cav8andrewIs the alternative product the LUNOtherm as advertised on the Partel site ?
    Ah, yes that's the one, maybe it's a rebadged VH unit??
  8.  
    Posted By: gravelldAs I think I mentioned in the other thread, as it stands the FIWIs are not permitted under code in the UK because of the purge rates required in a single wet room. So you can have one, but you need individual ventilation in the bathrooms etc as well. AIUI.
    Well its now called the filterless/ductless FreshR, its Passive House certified and is entered into a competition for ventilating apartments at this years Passive House conference in April (hoping for a win). Its main advantage over the competition is that it can efficiently exchange sufficient air for 4 people and stay below 30dB, the competing units can only ventilate efficiently for 1 person and stay below 30dB so we have a good chance.
    One version has a side duct attachment where air from a nearby bathroom can also be extracted through the unit. Each unit has a WIFI attachment so the air quality can be checked on your iphone.
    Each unit has a built in CO2 and Humidity monitor and adjusts its speed depending on occupancy levels.
    They self adjust their ventilation rate depending on the occupancy levels so unoccupied areas in a house aren't ventilated, so the heat-loss from a Passive House which is similar to the heat-loss from ventilation is reduced by 60%.
    We just sold 350 units for a Passive House renovation project of 350 hi-rise apartments in Glasgow and 100 units for an off grid Passive House project in Newquay.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2016
     
    Posted By: Viking HouseOne version has a side duct attachment where air from a nearby bathroom can also be extracted through the unit
    Now that's a game-changer! But you'd say not necessary, just a sop to the Regs?
    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2016
     
    Seamus, I'm envious and impressed, as ever! ... which I'd say anyway, even if I WASN'T about to ask if there's a GBF members discount floating about anywhere ;-D
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2016
     
    Got a client who's maybe buying into this, so needing to be v sure it does what it says.

    The 'new' (2010) Part F Regs, with their insane requirement for amount of 'background ventilators', going multifold beyond what the hated trickle vents can provide, seem to be forcing the building industry toward the alternatives offered - 24/7 mechanical ventilation (which can mean that trad bathroom and kitchen extractors can be omitted) or even better, MHRV (ditto). That's where the FiWi/FreshR comes in, AFAIC, esp in 1-bed flat and Granny Annexe cases, which I have presently.

    So, any more feedback/experience?
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2016
     
    fostertom, yes the Part F is pushing towards higher levels of ventilation (to avoid condensation issues with extra insulation?) and on to MVHR... or similar.
    Europe gets 'it', so why is the UK so far behind? (don't bother answering that, it was rhetorical!):bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2016
     
    Yes, but funny way of doing it, requiring punitive amounts of 'background' ventilation - a 1-bed flat currently requiring 90,000mm2 - that's a 300x300 of 'hole in wall' - in addition to opening windows and kit/bath extraction.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    Posted By: fostertomYes, but funny way of doing it, requiring punitive amounts of 'background' ventilation - a 1-bed flat currently requiring 90,000mm2 - that's a 300x300 of 'hole in wall' - in addition to opening windows and kit/bath extraction.

    I'm not clear why you think it's a funny way of going about it? What alternative way would you suggest?

    The issue of course is IAQ and the now plentiful evidence that traditional ventilation does not lead to good IAQ. Some countries simply mandate MV as a requirement in response but the UK seems to believe in offering lots of option (which in most ways I approve of). So there is still the option of not having mechanical ventilation, but there is a requirement for adequate continuous ventilation and there appears, sensibly, to be no desire to force people to open windows. So what alternative can you suggest?
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    Posted By: djhThe issue of course is IAQ and the now plentiful evidence that traditional ventilation does not lead to good IAQ.

    IAQ? Internal Air Quality?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: djhI'm not clear why you think it's a funny way of going about it?
    Because it's merely punitive - as you say
    Posted By: djhnow plentiful evidence that traditional ventilation does not lead to good IAQ
    90,000mm2 is simply absurd and if installed would achieve nothing - who's going to leave that un-taped-over? If it's meant to look like
    Posted By: djhlots of option
    then it's phony.

    If they must, why not spell it out - this option is ineffective - MV or MHRV is strongly preferred fotr these reasons - instead of leaving the industry to take years to notice that it's being dumbly incentivised?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: skyewright: “IAQ? Internal Air Quality?”

    Yep, though usually “indoor” rather than “internal”:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoor_air_quality

    AFT (Another TLA)

    (PS, I looked at the reddit SpaceX thread the other week (just before their land-back). Not normally a redditor but I was interested to see that that subreddit has a bot which periodically adds posts to threads with translations of various acronyms used in the thread. Very cute.)
  18.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: fostertom</cite>then it's phony.

    If they must, why not spell it out</blockquote>

    Typical British regulatory fudge. Starts out with good intentions then gets watered down after industry lobbying (big house builders complaining it will raise their costs) so ends up getting implemented without teeth.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    Posted By: Simon Still
    Posted By: fostertomthen it's phony.

    If they must, why not spell it out


    Typical British regulatory fudge. Starts out with good intentions then gets watered down after industry lobbying (big house builders complaining it will raise their costs) so ends up getting implemented without teeth.

    Exactly.

    Ah, if you're OK with simply making MVHR mandatory Tom, then there's no problem. :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    Why wouldn't you make it mandatory (on new builds)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    By the time you add up the simplifications it promises (?) the FiWi/FreshR is far from burdensome costwise.

    At least for a small unit, 1-bed or so -
    a single box, surface or semi-recessed mounting, fit-and-forget, no ducts to rooms (optional), self-commissioning (?),
    eliminates bath, kit fans, 45,000mm2 regulable/quality fresh-air-inlet units, 2no of if it's single-aspect (which the window industry at least can't source)
    guarantees IAQ - and no mould, attractive to rental landlords.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    I can see why it would be good for small dwellings with one nearby wetroom which you could site near the unit.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    @fostertom

    What about BC wanting a fan outlet in kitchens?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    Can the FiWi/FreshR be installed in a bathroom?
    Can it have a timed boost button to cope with smells? (or boost wired into lighting)

    (The bathroom is the one room that has no fire risk putting vents in the door.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: ringiWhat about BC wanting a fan outlet in kitchens?
    Posted By: fostertomisn't this part of the Approved Documents - i.e. 'one way' that the regulation may be fulfilled? - so 'other ways' are not ruled out.


    Posted By: fostertomThe snag I found with another such (but much cheaper, lower-tech) single-unit MHRV unit, the Envirovent HeatSava, is worth a read
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10274&page=3" >. Not, I think to be positioned in the bathroom, tho at first thought that seems the ideal place.


    Posted By: ringiCan it have a timed boost button to cope with smells?
    It claims to think for itself.
  26.  
    But can it smell?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2016
     
    It can't tell if there are smells, only if the CO2 or H20 is out of control in the air.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconBut can it smell?
    You mean, does its nose run and its feet smell?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: Cav8andrewIs the alternative product the LUNOtherm as advertised on the Partel site ?
    That seems to be a pure extractor. Their HRV units seem to be more like the HeatSava, and suspiciously say things like:
    "average 85.8% tested efficiency ... heat recovery efficiency of over 90%"
    in adjacent paras.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     

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