Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2016
     
    What techniques that are commonly used abroad to build new home should we adopt?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2016
     
    Solid rendered masonry walls as opposed to cavity, especially when combined with deep soffits.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    solid walls, EWI, MVHR, 3G, air-tightness, that should be a good start! :bigsmile:
    Oh, and a pride in working, site-detailing, and doing the job right for the sake of it?:wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    Factory built timber frame.
    Educated workforce.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaFactory built timber frame.

    Pretty common around here. Didn't think we counted as abroad yet? :wink::bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    Not putting 50% of the people in the building trade out of work for a long term every few years when there is a down turn in the housing market.

    The same issue stops more efforts towards using “factory built” homes, as the risk of a factory with no work is too great.
  1.  
    Professionalism would go a long way. The number of trades who haven't got a clue....:cry:

    I'm sure there are a few abroad, but....

    Insulated slabs!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    Cob/adobe/mud - more buildings (up to 14 stroeys!) made of this than all others put together. Lots of fun. Excavate your own building materials on your own site (make a semi-basement). When eventually abandoned, it just falls back into the hole.

    Don't laugh - it's called resilience, preparedness, for when the industrial system collapses (or transforms, localises).

    No reason why we shouldn't re-think the practice to make it a lot easier and higher-performing, while waiting for that life-reaffirming day
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    I like solid masonry with thick EWI common in Central Europe,

    Insulated foundations, we need them but don't have them yet.

    How about behavioural change towards home owner involvement before and during the build, that in itself would get us better standards,
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    Insulated foundations are hard to do on some of our clay soils, as you have to go so deep.

    Viking homes gave up on solid masonry due to the problems on getting it air tight. I think the UK trades people just are not up to it.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016
     
    I don't blame them I put the blame for the lac of air tightness on the designers and regulators.

    Poured concrete is airtight quick and cheap, surprise that we don't use it domestically.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeFeb 11th 2016 edited
     
    With respect to one and all, I would not necessarily get excited about the factor of "abroad" offering any better practice than "at home", frankly. The grass (? building ?) is always greener on the other bloake's side of the hill... (OR NOT...)

    I bought several times off-plan in Paris (three, to be exact), and *NEVER* had a snag-free delivery.

    Each time the product contained errors that would make anybody's hair stand on end... notably but not exhaustively, air and water leaks through external joinery; flooded balcony that overflowed back into lounge; acoustical floating slab that did not work (because stupid workmen punctured membrane with shovels, so the poured screed contacted the slab...).(could not be repaired, so actually got a rebate for that one...).

    Principal problem: lack of site coordination: the various trades work like *PIGS*, basically.

    I know it's wrong to generalize, and I generally DON'T, but for some reason, the building trades seem to have a culture of innefectiveness or downright ignorance of the task.
    My own father was a sometime builder's labourer, and he brought me up to respect other peoples' work, and he was right. But it is SO DIFFICULT to when:
    -- plumbers STACK four bathtubs one inside the other, thus all (except the top one...) are irremediably *gouged* by next bath's feet;
    -- or tiler grouts and blocks up the shower trap; then PUNCTURES the trap with his screwdriver, while "unblocking" the sludge-pond...
    ad nauseam...

    Seemingly, no trade has any consideration whatsoever for previous trade's works, or of facilitating things for follow-on trades...

    Masons leave wall conduits unplugged so latter fill with water: electricians then connect the circuit; several months later, the insulation has degraded and you get mico-cuts that take out your freezer the first weekend you've had off in months...

    Electricians connect the day/night tariff-changeover relay *back to front* and nobody notices for months; then the electric board offer you a 17 quid rebate "out of the goodness of their hearts"...

    Or the flat next to mine: solid oak wood floor, laid with no edge-gap: so when the estate agent comes to show the flat, cannot open the door (because the wood floor has flexed "somewhat", so rings my bell, asking if they can hop over my balcony, to see the "show flat", that was a good one !

    list goes on, but I don't want to compromise my good night's sleep

    Suffice it to say, no trade, in my experience, does the job right, the *worst offenders* being the clerks of works, who are basically site-and-job *illiterate*, so the blame rests soundly with them IMO.

    sorry for the rant...

    gg

    CORRECTED: I bought FOUR times off-plan, actually.

    One one studio flat, I ordered window-film, cost a fortune.
    Or would have, if I'd paid for it.

    The guy who came to install it nonchalantly DUMPED his metal toolbox without any protecion on my brand-new wood floor, then gouged it by dragging the toolbox while searching for a screwdriver.

    I dismissed him on the spot, and never got any window film thereafter.

    (I actually thought I was off to stab him with the screwdriver)...
  2.  
    I'm with gyrogear - I won't rant but only 'cos it's late. Oh OK then 1 little example - blokes came to fit the french doors (2 doors and one tilting so far to big and heavy for me alone - the Ali bottom 'rail' sits on my carefully prepared just the right height wood plinth. So the main guy starts putting a 5mm bead of silicone along the centre of the wood plinth, which will align with the centre of the ali profile where it is hollow - I start remonstrating and he explains he needs to put the silicone on or you will be able to see through to outside and that will be ugly - that's not it I explain, what about the wind, looked at me bemused - so I showed him I wanted 2 thicker beads of silicone along the plinth where the flat touching bits of the ali (thermally broken frame) will go - he thought I was wierd but did it, he was a nice guy, and the installation boss.

    There are lots of nice chocolate box houses around here built in the last 10 years or so - I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. OK solid walls are great and for me allow all sorts of renovation that would be very difficult otherwise. The trades are just as ignorant over here, but the regs and education are worse, and there's so much fraud and other illegality that ignoring a few rules taking a few shortcuts is normal for virtually everyone.....which is why I can get away with doing all the stuff i am doing :bigsmile::wink:
    • CommentAuthorPingy
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    I know we're moving away a bit from Tony's question but I agree with gyrogear and Gotanewwife (sorry that's how I read your username everytime I see it!) Interestingly I have had several very good tradesmen whose workmanship I cannot fault. The one thing I found that they all had in common was they'd all "been in engineering" before becoming the tradesmen they are now. Maybe the housing industry needs to be taken over by the car industry?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Posted By: PingyMaybe the housing industry needs to be taken over by the car industry?
    I have been saying that for decades.

    Mass production is really the only way forward. It is quite ridiculous how we build housing in the UK (and probably elsewhere).
    Is it really necessary to still be plastering walls, we have materials that can have just about any colour and finish on them, are easy to use, and cheap. Yet we allow a bloke in with a bag of powder, some water and a bit of metal in his hand. Then he puts as much plaster on the floor as the walls. Then it takes ages to dry, gets damaged easily and falls of when it gets wet.
    I don't know how many different designs of cars there are today, or how many different colours, or trim levels, but I think there is enough to satisfy most peoples individuality.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Mass production is for universal products that disregard their environment because they're portable. Mass production is quite unsuitable for buildings, every one of which is (or should be) unique because the environment to which it's tied is unique.

    Otherwise, just think caravans/mobile homes - inherently trash because have to be built down to a price because directly in competition with umpteen near-identicals.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016 edited
     
    An interesting point, but totally wrong in my opinion.
    If you got an Architect and a production designer, and some production engineers together, this argument would vanish within an hour and two beers.

    Keeping with the car theme, we have extremes that are perfectly matched to their environment, there is a lot of difference between a Tata Nano and a RangeRover, there is also a lot of difference between a RangeRover and a LandRover Defender.

    Also taking the caravan comparison, you saying that mass production is of lower quality because of price or an inherent deficiency of mass production? Shall we compare a Jago Jeep to the car it was based on, the Mk2 Escort.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    I'm with Steamy on this one - mass production doesn't necessarily mean all the same. Back in Henry Ford's day it more-or-less did but now it's easy to mass produce bespoke products. Computers help. If you have a “system” then it's easy to adapt the shape, cladding, whatever to the site and initial user's requirements to make houses which are unique yet share enough commonality that they can be factory built by specialists and robot tooling quickly.

    Ringi's comment above about boom and bust seems to me the best explanation of why it's not happening except in rather niche (expensive, like Huf Haus) markets which are less sensitive to the cycles.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Surely it can't be beyond the wit of designers to factory produce homes with style, individuality, etc., but with a commonality of components and modules. Half of the problem with the perception of monotonous design of such homes is the design and landscape of the environment into which they are placed.
    The serried rows of estate houses,- only one step forward from "back to backs", are not the way to go. Nor is putting a few curves into the roads of such two dimensional, estates in an attempt to create ambience the way to go either. The way forward IMO is to properly landscape an area, make it attractive and desirable to live in, and then place the similar, but not the same, factory made homes in it. I've seen it done to great effect.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Its called the race to the bottom, almost every modern technique which results in saving money has a long term degradation issue. But the customer has to buy the cheapest, while it looks nice and shiny. Some one built a timber framed block of flats near to me. The panels were so badly constructed, I would not have used them for my shed.
    Frank
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016 edited
     
    There could be a lot of commonality, we already have it with windows and doors, kitchens and bathrooms, so why not wall and foundations.
    Most roofs are pretty simple too, and a lot of the trusses are already built off site.
    I think part of the problem is the use cranes, I suspect that this frightens a lot of small builders.

    Electrical work is a bit tricky, but if you went for a panelled system, and every panel had a conduit already fitted, then pulling though cables would be quite easy as you would know exactly where every conduit was. No more guessing, it is just there.
    The use of radial circuits makes this even easier. Probably only take 2 people 2 days to wire up a normal house.

    I don't know much about plumbing, but with flexible water pipe, a similar system could be used I would have though, just feed it all back to a hot and a cold manifold and plug them in. I suspect that it would help if the plumber knew that the place where the bath had to sit was the right size, true and level. Mass production can help there.
    Same with window and door openings. No more building, measuring, getting them made and then fitting, the windows and doors could be ready on site, or nearby, and would fit, first time, few screws, job done.
    This would also leave more scope for manufacturers, they would know exactly what parameters they are working to, so could put more effort into material and artistic design rather than admin, and argument over a couple of mm.

    House designers would also know what is possible as all the structural calculation would have been done first. They submit their design, from standardised parts, and a computer works out if it is possible and meets regs. Just imagine if every one of the 2.2 million cars made in the UK last year had to be run past an engineer because it may or may not have a different braking system (car manufacturers often used 3 different manufactures for brakes because of industrial issues).
    Want PV on the roof, the sums are already done, that will save you Ă‚ÂŁ300.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    I think you have confirmed what I said. In my cottage which I wired up myself. There are 4+4+4+4 +4+3 +1 +1 = 27 double sockets, 4 single sockets, cooker outlet, hob outlet. And even that is not enough! Some rooms have a mutiplicity of chargers , telephones. . plugged into them with adapters. A couple of sparkies would have be pushed to connect these up in a day, yet alone the fans and lights. So if you want two power points a room. . . This also stuffs the argument for radial circuits, unless you have the room to run 31 cables and a box for 31 MCBs.
    I have seen an UK house withe radials. It was a housing association build, about 1980. In the hall there was a panel with about 18 MCBs on it. Very tidy!
    Frank
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaMass production is really the only way forward. It is quite ridiculous how we build housing in the UK (and probably elsewhere).
    Is it really necessary to still be plastering walls, we have materials that can have just about any colour and finish on them, are easy to use, and cheap. Yet we allow a bloke in with a bag of powder, some water and a bit of metal in his hand. Then he puts as much plaster on the floor as the walls. Then it takes ages to dry, gets damaged easily and falls of when it gets wet.
    I don't know how many different designs of cars there are today, or how many different colours, or trim levels, but I think there is enough to satisfy most peoples individuality.


    I totally agree !

    After purchasing a multi-unit dwelling (that is supposed to last perhaps 100 years of more...) how many times, years down the line, will there will be that "small bathroom flood" that damages all the downstairs appartments and creates EXPONENTIAL repair bills, insurance losses, stress, angst...

    Only the lawyers and follow-on tradesmen will be happy - it keeps them in work, of course !
    The insurers will increase their premiums, so get richer.
    and best of all, it is Very Good For the Econmy (? M ?)...

    However, the poor old purchasers/residents will be living in stress, wishing they'ed never bought in the first place.

    Give me a factory-made and fitted modular bathoom, any day; out of some glossy catalogue; with sealed-pan composite pre-tiled floor and the twenty-seven color options that ST suggested (like a car...). Complete with its certification and ISO stamps etc.

    After all, who would consider making up a bathroom or a cabin or a kitchen or a restaurant for an ocean liner (or a nuclear submarine or an Airbus A 380...) *in situ* ? Mental !

    The main problem with traditional building on-site, with delivery of materials and guys with trowels and screwdrivers, is that there is little formalizing of procedures. No Methods Engineering...

    Per ST's suggestion, aircraft and cars are certainly NOT built this way...

    For anybody to get anywhere near an aircraft in-build, or even in maintenance, he has to have ID, certification, training, documentation: a FORMALIZED process...

    There is no (or at most, extremely little...) formalization in ANY building processes, as I see it: roofers are unaware of the latest code of practice: joiners install windows without seals; worst of all, the Window Factory installed the low-E double glazing back to front in any case....

    Not enough quality assurance meetings or toolbox talks like in the US); insufficient education; lack of culture; lack of intellectual bandwidth to "get the big picture" and see where one's own trade/works fit into the overall scheme of things.

    After all, houses these days (like aircraft, ships, cars...) are complex SYSTEMS, and in order to function they need a linear programmed approach and consciencious application of formalized *procedures* - this is why Passive Hause and similar initiatives will take off -- It's All in the Planning -- the thinking has to be DEFINED beforehand then checked at *every* stage* of implementation. And even the checkers have to be checked...
    The customer is kept in the loop, and there is a WARRANTY with real teeth...

    Which is why the above comments regarding need of *Engineers* in the loop are also *extremely pertinent*.

    enough !
    LUNCH :bigsmile::
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016 edited
     
    If you made a scale of 'engineering difficulty', with submarines at 10, and a bicycle at 1, where would we place housing, cars, trains, ships and aeroplanes?

    My feeling is that housing very low, maybe a 2, cars at about 4, trains a 5, ships a 6 or 7, planes an 8 and spaceships a 9 and submarines a 10.
    A lot of my decision is based on the number of people that are in/on each and the difficulty of the environment they are in.
    So a spaceship has to handle a negative pressure (kind of) a submarine has to handle several atmosphere of pressure and has a hundred people in it, works autonomously once away from base, can hide and stay submerged for many months.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    I guess it all depends on the actual type of bike, or car, or train or ship, or aeroplane !

    However, for starters, how would one define "engineering difficulty" ?

    I thought that engineers were, by definition, people that did not find *anything* difficult !

    On a serious note, an aircraft engineer might find it quite difficult to design a house, if he knows nothing about the properties of the respective materials involved (bricks, blocks, timber trusses, compression strength of reinforced concrete versus cement screed etc. etc.). He might design a good car, however, particularly from the electronic and aerodynamic viewpoints...

    What defines engineering, is that it involves using mathematics to solve problems.

    A methods engineer would "easily" come up with a procedure to do any of those tasks - it's his job !

    gg
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Posted By: chuckeyThis also stuffs the argument for radial circuits, unless you have the room to run 31 cables and a box for 31 MCBs.
    You don't need a separate radial for each socket pair.

    I have about 10 (plus the lighting) in mind for my house and that's splitting things up fairly finely. E.g., the study will have two 6A radials, one for each bench plus a third “high power” one to allow a fan heater or something to be plugged in for occasional use.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016 edited
     
    Was really thinking that a house is static, has little loading on it, weight is generally not an issue.
    Even a basic car has more technology in it, they are, to a certain extent, off grid, safe, reliable and very cheap.
    Most of the technology in a house are optional extras, I have a 20 quid radio, other have Ă‚ÂŁ20,000 'entertainment systems', neither is much to do with the engineering of a house.
    I would think that if an aeronautical engineer designed a house, it would be longer lasting, easily repairable, cheaper and self sufficient. And come with MVHR built in.
    And windows that are electrically activated.
    I mean really, why do we still accept windows that need handles and levers to open and close them.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaIf you made a scale of 'engineering difficulty', with submarines at 10, and a bicycle at 1, where would we place housing, cars, trains, ships and aeroplanes?

    My feeling is that housing very low, maybe a 2, cars at about 4, trains a 5, ships a 6 or 7, planes an 8 and spaceships a 9 and submarines a 10.
    A lot of my decision is based on the number of people that are in/on each and the difficulty of the environment they are in.
    So a spaceship has to handle a negative pressure (kind of) a submarine has to handle several atmosphere of pressure and has a hundred people in it, works autonomously once away from base, can hide and stay submerged for many months.

    There isn't a single level for each type of object! For example, you say a submarine is more difficult than a spaceship. Well apart from just counting the number of parts there are many other points - you don't mention the demands of re-entry - thermal and mechanical stresses. You assume spaceships are small, but building the ISS is quite difficult and spaceships are at a much earlier state of development. Ditto cars - people used to make their own, but it's not so easy now.

    It's all dwarfed by the LHC or the world communications network though.
    • CommentAuthorvord
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016 edited
     
    It does amaze me how difficult to maintain modern houses are and how short the life expectancy.

    There are a lot of old houses (including mine) with original windows well over 100 years old. How mad is that? If a pipe bursts the lime and lath ceiling doesn't come down unlike plasterboard. The walls are designed to dry out when they get water into them unlike modern walls which will fail if they ever leak.

    I think housing has learnt from the car industry. You can keep an old car (like mine) going with very few resources. Eco friendly cars are very environmentally unfriendly to construct and have a short lifespan. Why not make houses just as eco friendly and design in a short life.

    I wonder if we could learn something from the past.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2016
     
    Not that spacecraft are particularly small, or larger, than a submarine. Just that they have fewer people on them, so some of the challenges are smaller.

    Main thing is, from an engineering point of view, housing is pretty simple, possibly why it does not attract decent engineers.

    Imagine the after 'engineering awards' party.
    Three engineers, the one that designed the life support on the ISS, the one that deigned that fantastic bridge in France and the one that deigned the sewage system on a block of flats in Bangladesh.
    Which one is going to attract the press.
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press