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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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Products: Actis Hybris

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Has anyone used Actis Hybris, it looks as easy to fit as rockwall, but has u-values that are claimed to be better then PIR (Kingspan).

    Unlike Kingspan it is more flexible, so you cut it 40mm oversize and then push it into between the timbers.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015 edited
     
    The data sheet here claims..
    http://www.insulation-actis.com/documentations/108pdf3.pdf

    "..a core declared thermal conductivity ( D) as low as 0,033 W/m.K"

    Where as Celotex claim..

    http://www.celotex.co.uk/products/ga4000

    "Lambda: 0.022 W/mK"

    Have I missed something? That suggests Celotex is better by..

    (0.033-0.022)/0.022 = 0.5 or 50%
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    For easy, "tight" fitting between joists etc. I like Rockwool acoustic batts. I've used them a couple of times and they cut easily and form really well around awkward shapes. They are semi rigid and are less messy to cut than PIR. You can also get them foil faced.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Posted By: owlmanFor easy, "tight" fitting between joists etc. I like Rockwool acoustic batts. I've used them a couple of times and they cut easily and form really well around awkward shapes. They are semi rigid and are less messy to cut than PIR.

    We used these in the walls and ceiling. I agree with everything owlman says but would add that they quickly got a reputation on our site as the job everyone loves to hate. Especially pushing them up into the ceiling was hot, hard work and incredibly itchy. I haven't thought about it but I think I'd still use them if I did it again, though.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Do you mean Rockwool Flexi? That's quite an interesting product.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Posted By: gravelldDo you mean Rockwool Flexi? That's quite an interesting product.

    I don't; I mean RWA45 batts.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Yes Dave I know them as RWA 45 but I think they've changed the numbering system now. Also "RWA 45 is only one type there are other higher?? grades and slightly more dense/rigid.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015 edited
     
    One site says..

    "100mm Rockwool Prorox SL920 formerly known as RWA45 Slab"

    "Thermal conductivity: 0.050 W/mK"

    Easier to fit well but appears you need twice the thickness compared to PIR to get same u-value.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Posted By: owlmanYes Dave I know them as RWA 45 but I think they've changed the numbering system now. Also "RWA 45 is only one type there are other higher?? grades and slightly more dense/rigid.


    Posted By: CWattersOne site says..

    "100mm Rockwool Prorox SL920 formerly known as RWA45 Slab"

    "Thermal conductivity: 0.050 W/mK"

    Yes, Prorox SL930 (not 920) were what we used. I couldn't remember and got the RWA45 name from the Rockwool site! Thought it didn't sound quite right.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    "Thermal conductivity: 0.050 W/mK"

    Was getting quite interested until I read that. That's not really an insulator, more of a conductor, isn't it? But I'm not sure it's right.

    http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/u/2011.product/9847/building-insulation/rockwool-prorox-slab-range-%28formerly-known-as-rwa45-rw3-rw4-rw5-rw6%29

    says

    “Thermal Conductivity 0.034 - 0.035 W/mKâ€Â

    which seems much more sensible.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    The thermal conductivity is a bit misleading as it acts like a multi foil to some extent.

    However I see the main benefit as being it is easy to fit WELL. So unlike Celotex etc you don't get the gaps down the sides. I have space for 180mm (220 - 50 air gap) between joists but given the thermal bridge of the timber there is a limit to how much "u value" it is worth putting between the timber.

    At 165mm it seems to cost about the same as 100mm of PIR Insulation board.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Mm but expanding foam has a better u value than this, so why not cut a little slack and foam your PIR in?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2015
     
    Lots of cutting and more time to install. Otherwise foaming in PIR is great!
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2015
     
    well, I'll give you that, but still gotta cut tthe hubris, so overall it can't be much more than twice as fast..

    I think too that if I'd had my PIR while the lads were making the timber frame panels I'd have installed it then, as the panel was being knocked up. The other thing I don't quite get is why there don't seem to be PIR panels dedicated for timber framing, ie in widths of 540 or 560 depending on whether one is installing an edge-of-panel cassette or in a middle-of-panel

    All in, it seems pretty easy to optimise so I don't have bags of off cits.. Done 2 houses so far and all I have are a ton bag of usable small bits and 3bin bags of saw dust (which I'm planning on packing a particularly awkward shaped cavity with, but you're right.. It's slower than cutting a roll of wool and packing it in and it seems that one person on the saw and another on the fitting more than doubles the speed of the process..
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: djhI agree with everything owlman says but would add that they quickly got a reputation on our site as the job everyone loves to hate. Especially pushing them up into the ceiling was hot, hard work and incredibly itchy. I haven't thought about it but I think I'd still use them if I did it again, though.


    The best way to avoid itching at the end of a day's insulating is to give the job to someone you don't like! :)

    I've got a load of glass wool to hang in the party wall, wondering if I get one of those disposable overalls that decorators wear and tape the joint at my hands up, whether I'll get away with minimal itch, at the risk of dying of heat exhaustion
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2015 edited
     
    I've just done a whole timber frame with celotex, it was a horribly messy job and quite time consuming and fiddly. Next time I'm thinking of using blown in cellulose, no cutting, no foaming, quick and little mess!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2015
     
    Posted By: cjardI've got a load of glass wool to hang in the party wall, wondering if I get one of those disposable overalls that decorators wear and tape the joint at my hands up, whether I'll get away with minimal itch, at the risk of dying of heat exhaustion

    It helps, as do gloves and face masks, but it does get quite hot and its a pain to get on and off without getting itchy-scratchy inside if you want to wear it more than once. One tip that seems to help is to have a shower with cold, plain water straight afterwards before you shower with warm water and/or soap. It gets the fibres off more effectively.

    Posted By: TriassicNext time I'm thinking of using blown in cellulose, no cutting, no foaming, quick and little mess!

    It's interesting what happens if they get out of order and the chap in the van turns on the pump before the chap inside sticks the nozzle in the hole! But the chaps who did ours were very good about cleaning up, though we still found small clumps stuck to things around the place for weeks afterwards.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJun 12th 2015
     
    Cutting Actis Hybris is VERY quick, you cut the role before unrolling it. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vphqElmr2I&index=2&list=PLy8ZiNLWw-X3CvJnaws2IB2X4c2Aj-6UB

    The questions is does is seal as well as formed pir and the additional thickness you need.

    But is may be a lot better the "builder" installed PIR!
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJun 13th 2015
     
    I'm curious to know whether mineral wool and glass wool differ. I have already installed some naïf earth wool acoustic wool in the party wal and that didn't seem itchy at all. The stuff I have now to install is isover and is I believe glass rather than mineral. Either I'm particularly immune / insensitive or the itchiness of the two products differs. I also wonder whether soaking the roll in water would quell the cloud of fibres, though also making it too heavy to install

    So, a tis hybrid, wool and warmcel are all sort of on par for lambda. How do the prices compare? Warmcel was quoted as 6 grand installed for my 2x280sqm semi pair new build and I think we were looking at using 60 cube so about 100 a cube. I chose pir because full price pir is 100 a cube and I'm getting it for about half. Wool varies, but I can get it for around 20 quid a cube if its second quality or 30 to 40 a cube if first
  20.  
    I used both Rockwool Flexi batts and the Paroc equivalent, I didn't have a problem with itching with either but much preferred the Rockwool to work with as the material was bound together better and the batts were cut very square and kept that shape much better than the Paroc batts.

    Rockwool have a Mineral wool / Aerogel hybrid product which is sold in Germany under the name Aerowolle it has a Lambda: 0.019 W/mKa, but it seems only to be sold in fairly thin sections bonded to plasterboard aimed at the renovation market and I suspect that it is rather expensive.

    I think a mineral wool aergel hybrid in 145mm batts would be the ideal product for timber framing as long as it wasn't eye wateringly expensive.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 13th 2015
     
    Posted By: cjardI'm curious to know whether mineral wool and glass wool differ.

    Yes, glass wool is much more itchy than rockwool.

    Posted By: cjardI also wonder whether soaking the roll in water would quell the cloud of fibres, though also making it too heavy to install

    If you get your rockwool wet then the only thing to do is let it dry out for however many weeks or months it takes before trying to install it, or else just put it in the skip and buy some more!

    Posted By: ringiCutting Actis Hybris is VERY quick, you cut the role before unrolling it.

    Same technique as rockwool loft rolls, but they're noticeably more difficult to use in walls as well as being worse performing.

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