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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorsanje48
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2009
     
    I am new to this forum and trying to gather information to make informed decisions about how to approach the planning of our heating system. So I will be extremely grateful for any helpful comments. It may be that we need to find a reliable someone to pay for the design of the system but, here too, help would be gratefully accepted as i have no idea where to find a reliable accredited someone.
    We are in the process of rebuilding a house in central italy. the construction is reclaimed stone from the original demolished building on the outside face, then anti seismic poroton bricks, 10 cms of insulation and another thin inner layer of poroton finished with cement plaster. the house will end up being 190m2 finished internal size. the house is on a south facing hillside.
    We are planning to use underfloor heating and want to use use wood as our primary heating source as it is plentiful and cheap there, supplemented with solar panels for summer hot water (and hopefully contributing to winter space heating). We are considering either a 'Vulcano' fire insert with a back boiler which would be sited in the living room or a wood gassification boiler (in an outhouse) from either Viessman or alternatively Kotly from eastern europe since it is far cheaper and we are being crippled by the fall in the value of the pound. I have heard that we could have issues with the overproduction of hot water in the summer if we have enough solar panel size to make a generous contribution to winter space heating. How does one overcome that one?
    Should we use flat plate or vacuum tube collectors? Or what about the Solartwin option including a PV pump?
    What size thermal store would we need and would we need a separate store/ accumulator for DHW ?
    Would it be a good idea to buy all our equipment including the UFH from Viessmann since it seems to be a co-ordinated system?
    Does anyone have any experience importing from Kotly?
    Does anyone have recommendations either generally or specifically regarding the type of products to use?
    And finally ANY contributions will be very gratefully accepted
    It is difficult to find people in our area of Italy who are really familiar with and competent to install a system along these lines. We are getting masses of conflicting information and everyone wants to charge us a fortune. Our budget is limited and shrinking due to the aforementioned fall of the pound. We would like to make the system as efficient as possible obviously but also as simple as possible.
    Thanks.
  1.  
    Wel, well, well Sanje48, Hi! I'm a Brit and I live in Umbria, I can probably answer many of your questions as I am most of the way through the process myself - except mine is a renovation of a late 60s early 70s build. In addition, depending on what you mean by Central Italy I can point you at some Heating/Green/Solar/Engineer specialists. But before I write loads please do a search for "Italy" in the comments and read all those threads of relevance (90% have me learning in them!).

    Before I (or probably anyone) will try and give you fully satisfactory answers to your 'general' questions you really need to look up the standard answers and issues relating to them on this site. For Example the FP Vs ET has a lot on it and you will see that, for YOU, FPs are the answer. Likewise, with a wood burner as the heat source and UFH, a big tank of hot water is the obvious, indeed only, way forward. May I suggest to you the following action plan:

    Search Under Italy and read threads,
    Find out your heating requirement (how I did it is in a couple of the threads),
    Size your wood burner, understanding the trade offs between size of tank and how often you want to light your burner, but also aware of the 35.5KW limit in Italy (but with a well insulated/air tight house you SHOULDN'T get near that)
    Size your solar panels by comparing the insolation figures for your azimuth and roof inclination (assuming on the roof) with your DHW requirement around the times when you would expect to turn on your heating for the winter and off.
    Then check your budget and understand that more spent on insulation and airtightness will be a spend to save measure - then go back to your Geometra to improve these - especially the latter!!!
    Then do these steps again
    Then post for help with, what will by then be, more specific questions.

    Whisper your location and address and we'll see if meeting up is an option....and welcome!
    • CommentAuthorcontadino
    • CommentTimeJan 30th 2009
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: sanje48</cite>Should we use flat plate or vacuum tube collectors? Or what about the Solartwin option including a PV pump?
    What size thermal store would we need and would we need a separate store/ accumulator for DHW ?
    Would it be a good idea to buy all our equipment including the UFH from Viessmann since it seems to be a co-ordinated system?
    Does anyone have recommendations either generally or specifically regarding the type of products to use?
    And finally ANY contributions will be very gratefully accepted
    It is difficult to find people in our area of Italy who are really familiar with and competent to install a system along these lines. We are getting masses of conflicting information and everyone wants to charge us a fortune. Our budget is limited and shrinking due to the aforementioned fall of the pound. We would like to make the system as efficient as possible obviously but also as simple as possible.
    Thanks.</blockquote>

    Firstly, source EVERYTHING in Italy, preferably made by an Italian company, otherwise you'll have big problems getting your plumber to work with your components, and they'll probably not sign off the work in order to get your habitation certificate.

    Flat plate. Yes, you can run a PV pumped system. I do. However, for the reasons above, I'd avoid Solartwin.

    I'm further south than you, and my experience has been that even tradesmen that claim to understand things like woodburner DHW and solar system do not. You have to decide what you want, then explain it to them along with your reasons. Then watch them like a hawk when they're working to make sure they do what you agreed. If you're Italian or dialect isn't up to it, you're really going to struggle without a bi-lingual, clued-up, geometra - and they're like hens teeth.

    Yes, stuff is expensive here, unless you [i]fai da te[/i]. You just have to take ownership of the system (from sizing to implementation) and not let yourself get swayed by spurious red herrings. I must have had to take back at least 70% of the parts of my hot water system because people thought they knew better. Anything related to solar carries a surcharge - the €4 air valve next to my panel is exactly the same as one marked as Solare which someone tried selling me for €90.
  2.  
    Once I had decided to emigrate to Italy I took a big map of the place and drew a line from Rome to Pescara and said I wanted to live north of that line - a nasty generalisation but south is more like North Africa, north is southern European and north of Pisa Rimini is North and Western European also not what I wanted). I have had to work at it a little bit but I have found English speaking Green Energy experts, an English speaking Geometra with the Eco Qualification that takes 3 years study to get, an English speaking architect (who hates traditional Geometras) and English speaking builders. My Heating/Green guy runs a renewable energy centre in Umbria and recommended that I buy solar panels made in Turkey, a tank made in Germany and a WB made in Italy (incidentally some well known 'Italian' makes are just rebadged foreign makes). It is not that Contadino is wrong it is that in Italy when you ask a question you can get 10 different CORRECT answers, each depending on your circumstances and obviously the day of the week and phase of the moon - but at that moment don't doubt that they are correct!

    Now then, my local builder said I need no more than 40mm of insulation on my roof - it comes in rolls bonded to a bitumen outer surface, my local builders yard sells the stuff, my Green Heat guy and architect debated with me (newly informed from this Forum) and we agreed on a U value of around about 0.3 = about 100 mm as the best for my situation. The salesman from the posh swept up sexy ventilated all-in-one roof insulation system company was selling 60/80/100/120/140 insulation but it took him rather a while to understand that I calculated a U value from his K value. So the most important thing Contadino and I are saying to you is to take ownership and become an educated customer.

    Final point - you should cast your eye over the PV route not for the heating but for your house! - look at my "UK Lags Italy on PV Policy" thread - again also note Contadino and my differing perspectives.
  3.  
    This is an Italian article on their new high standard of energy friendly house - including the essential ventilation and heat recovery requirement. I suggest you shove this under the nose of your Geometra and ask him to advise whether he can do anything about getting anywhere near these standards and if so how much it will cost. Good luck
      House Standards Italy.jpg
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