Politics: Should we have proportional representation?

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- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
That's handsome - and no fear - my mother was an O'Brien, tho I believe the warlords of that tribe mostly sided with us English.
- CommentAuthorfuncrusher
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
I've decades of experience of uk elections, and decades experiencing proportional representation in Ireland. The Irish system is the one preferred by the Lib Dems: single transferable vote in multi-member constituencies. It is an utterly bad and corrupting system. Firstly, it tends to perpetuate small centre parties in office. Secondly, governments are unstable being at the whim of coalition partners. Thirdly, pork barrel politics and internal bickering dominate, instead of any semblence of integrity or good government. Last, but certainly not least, it creates permanent rule by dynastic elites. Howcome? Well in a multi-member consituency its extremely rare for any TD (ie Irish MP) seeking re-election to lose his seat - its a sinecure for life. You see, in multi-member constituencies parties field more than one candidate. The 'senior' one will always get a seat, the junior one may perhaps lose .....until the senior retires, and it is his turn to be elected until he dies or retires.....So 'safe seats' become the rule, not the exception.

Inevitably big parties tend to fragment, because there is no longer any electoral disadvantage in Dennis Skinner standing against Tony Blair. Anyway, since the system inherently leads to coalitions with very small majorities, individual mavericks end up getting airports, hospitals, stadiums built in their constituency (classic case: Knock airport).

And guess who are the real winners out opf all this? Why, the political elite, who are perpetually sheltered from ejection. No more Portillo events.

If we really want true democracy, its the Swiss referendum-style we want.
- CommentAuthorbot de paille
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
24 hour wire tapping of all politicians and councilers coupled with regular lie detector tests and total ban on any "consultancy" work with industry. All Lobbying and PR firms outlawed.
- CommentAuthorTuna
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
Posted By: bot de paille24 hour wire tapping of all politicians and councilers coupled with regular lie detector tests and total ban on any "consultancy" work with industry. All Lobbying and PR firms outlawed.

So you want to create career politicians who have no experience whatsoever of the real world and live in their own little bubble? That's a bit strange!

Posted By: sinnerboyAll peoples desire self determination I think that is self evident

But do you believe that true self determination will enable people to make the unpalatable decisions that are occasionally called for? We as a nation currently owe somewhere around the one trillion mark - yet we have condemned any politician who says they would cut more than six billion pounds from the budget (that's barely one percent of the annual budget).
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
Posted By: funcrusherFirstly, it tends to perpetuate small centre parties in office

Fact - Fianna Fail have been in power more often that any other party since 1922 . They are in power now - in coalition with the Irish Green Party . ( How many UK green party MPs ? )

Posted By: funcrusherSecondly, governments are unstable being at the whim of coalition partners.

When was the last time this was realized ? - The Harry Whelehan affair 1992 . In my opinion due to the arrogance of the larger party not the smaller one .

Posted By: funcrusherThirdly, pork barrel politics and internal bickering dominate, instead of any semblence of integrity or good government.

Agreed but unique , eh ? nothing to do with PR .

Posted By: funcrusherLast, but certainly not least, it creates permanent rule by dynastic elites. Howcome? Well in a multi-member consituency its extremely rare for any TD (ie Irish MP) seeking re-election to lose his seat - its a sinecure for life.

is at odds with

Posted By: funcrusherInevitably big parties tend to fragment,

Posted By: funcrusherAnyway, since the system inherently leads to coalitions with very small majorities,

We never had and never will have an Irish Maggie Thatcher . Good thing ? Bad thing ?

We would not be sent off to war in spite of the biggest march in our history against that war .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2765041.stm

Fact - in a referendum in 1959 and again in 1968 we rejected proposals - (surprise surprise on both occasions by Fianna Fail ) to change to the first past the post system . For better or worse we have here what we have chosen

To my UK chums - I am certainly NOT playing "beggar thy neighbor" . No high horse here . - sorry about this diversion but I couldn't leave this tripe unchallenged .

My sincere belief , desire and expectation is that the UK will experience now stable and competent governance for the next 5 years - and beyond .
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
Posted By: TunaBut do you believe that true self determination will enable people to make the unpalatable decisions that are occasionally called for?

It is so in Ireland now . We are going through economic devastation . The Construction Industry is wiped out . 50% of architects are unemployed , the rest under employed . Taxes have risen , public sector wages cut by 20% . We are crippled with debt to bail out our banks .

Why no Greek style unrest ?

We have complete transparency in our system here . And a sense it is OUR mess . We have ourselves to blame . ONLY . The responsibility that comes with self determination .
- CommentAuthorTuna
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
Posted By: sinnerboyWe have complete transparency in our system here . And a sense it is OUR mess . We have ourselves to blame . ONLY . The responsibility that comes with self determination .

Responsibility, yes. But ability to dig your way out of the mess? Is there evidence for that? (Genuine question, I find the different experiences around the world fascinating).
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
As I understand it a large part of the Greek situation is that people were lied to in a shameful manner . Govt stats were manipulated in a way that they aren't around here ( UK/IRL) . In the UK election campaign just now ( just as in in the Irish 07 election campaign ) politicians have not been telling the whole truth but our respective electorates are well served by media outlets and academic commentators . The awful details have yet to be spelt out in the UK but few will be surprised when they are I expect when UK Govt spokepersons parrot Irish Govt spokepersons phrases like "we are where we are now " and "we have the courage to take the TOUGH decisions"
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
Posted By: TunaResponsibility, yes. But ability to dig your way out of the mess? Is there evidence for that? (Genuine question, I find the different experiences around the world fascinating).

People here were used to a new car every 2 years . Two sun holidays per year and 2-3 weekend breaks . Eating out often and take aways even more often . Changing the PC because the newer ones looked better ( I did that . When I opened the box and set the new PC up I then thought to myself - "you eejit" ) . So there is fat to be cut to repay our debts - I hope so anyway.

At least now it is possible to foresee our children being able to purchase a house when they grow up . All that fantastic "equity" being built up in our houses ... well people facing retirement here were manipulated into taking out "equity release" plans so their adult kids could "get on the ladder" .

I honestly pray to god ( I am not usually religious ) that we never go through such a "boom" ever again

So a painful - but not devastating - adjustment is being made . But there are upsides you cannot price . We are chatting again at bus-stops garages and shops . We have the time now without the pressure of frantic economic activity - deadline after deadline . It seems to me we are becoming ourselves again .
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
Wonder if I can get an Irish passport?
- CommentAuthorfuncrusher
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
regarding comments by respondents on the Irish system: parties fragment (eg Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrats) but the personalities and dynasties remain the same. PR gives every incentive to senior politicians denied party leadership to set up op on their own: eg like SDP in the UK, but unlike the UK system a near certainty of some sustained role in coalition.

Tho FF has been prominent in Irish government, for much of modern times it has had to rely on a rag-bag of independents and odd-bods to cling to power. This has been a significant contributary factor the Irish economic melt-down. Concern about short term political survival has taken absolute priority over good government, by buying parliamentary support through extravagant pork-barrel politics and avoidance of unpopular but essential measures. PR encourages this, because electors know that by voting for a maverick there is an excellent chance his vote will be crucial to government and hence money will be showered on their constituency - rather like Labour showered money on Scotland because it was utterly dependent on Scots MPs.

If First-past-the-post gives voters too little justice, PR gives them too much by rewarding their selfish motives and rewards unscrupulous politicians, especiall Mr fix-its. Politicians who are corrupt, and who have even been jailed for it, are routinely re-elected for this reason, and governments forced to pander too them.
- CommentAuthorTuna
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
Posted By: sinnerboyPeople here were used to a new car every 2 years . Two sun holidays per year and 2-3 weekend breaks . Eating out often and take aways even more often . Changing the PC because the newer ones looked better ( I did that . When I opened the box and set the new PC up I then thought to myself - "you eejit" ) . So there is fat to be cut to repay our debts - I hope so anyway.

It fascinates me that looking back at the 'Greed is Good' Thatcher years, people shake their heads and sigh, yet Labour have overseen huge property speculation and debt based society and it passes unnoticed. We're still greedy - if anything the greed has moved down from big corporations and into the front rooms of every home. We are obsessed with our flat screen televisions and Playstations and as you say, two sun holidays a year. It doesn't seem to me that this is any more a caring society than two or three decades ago. Worse still, we're still fooling ourselves into blaming the big corporations for the problems, when it's people who have taken out x5 salary mortgages on second homes and maxxed out their credit cards that are at the heart of the issue.

At the moment I don't think the electorate have the stomach for the lean times ahead - if the ConDem alliance lasts more than two years without another election it will be pretty impressive.
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
Posted By: funcrusherparties fragment (eg Fianna Fail/Progressive Democrats)

And they condense too - The Workers Party -> Democratic Left -> The Labour Party

Posted By: funcrusherbut unlike the UK system a near certainty of some sustained role in coalition.

Leading ultimately to political evaporation - whither the PD's now ?

Posted By: funcrusherThis has been a significant contributary factor the Irish economic melt-down.

Incorrect . Our banks borrowed too much cheap money . So they they recklessly lent it on to developers thus inflating land and construction costs and consequently house prices . The banks - in order to ensure that the developers loans were repaid recklessly lent to all the Joe and Josephine Murphys to buy these overpriced "assets".
20 year mortgage terms becomes 25 , 30 , 35 - 40 ! LTV moved for 80% - 100% . All the time the Govt with its coffers overflowing with Stamp Duty revenue had not the balls to turn of this money tap . The civil services became indulged and inflated . NOTHING TO DO WITH PR !!!

Posted By: funcrusherConcern about short term political survival has taken absolute priority over good government,

NOTHING TO DO WITH PR !!!

Posted By: funcrusheravoidance of unpopular but essential measures

What country are you talking about now ? The Irish Govt "we are where we are now " and "we have the courage to take the TOUGH decisions" - is not popular now .

Posted By: funcrusherather like Labour showered money on Scotland because it was utterly dependent on Scots MPs.

Under the first past the post system in the UK .
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010
To all others -relax - I am not going to respond any further to FC's poor analysis and self contradicting posts .

In my opinion PR will deliver to the UK a fairer system - for politicians .

Once elected by whatever means - they will disappoint and / or impress the same way as they always have done .
- CommentAuthorsinnerboy
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2010 edited
@ menzies

You may well be right I swing between optimism and pessimism in an attempt to cope with a scary situation .

Sorry to continue to "green" this thread ( in the Irish not eco sense ) but this neatly outlines our situation here - cause for pessimism .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055823846

Anyone know where a UK equivalent graph may be located ?

Also two good links on the Greek situation here - to compare and contrast situations

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0507/1224269870156.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,694263,00.html

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