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Heating and cooling: Cheapest option for screeded UFH materials

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeJan 23rd 2016
     
    Hi

    Re- screeded ufh

    Labour is not really an issue within reason but which method is cheapest?

    Pipes clipped straight into insulation?
    Pipes in clip rails on insulation?
    Or the plastic egg box method?

    You guys have lots of experience in Ufh

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJan 23rd 2016
     
    Pipes clipped to insulation, get a labourer assistant to follow along behind you as you have the coil in hands and walking on the pipe as you pay the pipe out. For corners, support the pipe as you twist and bend it with your foot. You turn, the pipe in your hands turns etc. you never change the direction in which you uncoil the pipe.
    The tea boy puts staples in every 400 or so, apart from corners, staple the pipe as it starts to turn, mid way round and as it straightens out again

    You'll probably find mlcp (pert Al pert or pex Al pex) easier to work with because it stays bent. I can dig out a video of the process for you if you like..
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2016
     
    thanks cjard.

    Vid, yes please.

    Which brands have you worked with?

    Wundafloor are cheapest on overlay type

    Thansk
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2016 edited
     
    I like to lay a light mesh on the insulation and cable tie to that . It lifts the ufh pipe up a bit 10mm ish surrounding it with screed A142 is good about £20 a 3.6/2 sheet
    Pipe ranges. From £60-120 for a 100m coil, PB is the easiest to work with. I find the 120m coils handy. Each circuit want to be of equal length <100m the longer coil helps if you go a bit over . You can use the left overs for other work
    Insulation, depending on dig out or backfill depth I often use 200mm EPS rather than 100mm PUR as this can fill space easily and is cheaper plus slightly less environmentally negative than PUR
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2016
     
    X2
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2016
     
    Interesting comments. Thanks.

    What's pb pipe?

    How does polystyrene insulation sheets fill space better than say kingspan?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2016 edited
     
    polybutylene
    200mm EPS=100mm PUR ish
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2016
     
    If cable tie clipping pipes to mesh would you advise protection between the plastic pipe and the steel?

    It def looks to be cheaper to buy the plastic staples, the staple gun and go with that method. Clips are cheap on eBay. Pipe is mega cheap at Wundatrade.

    The guys who are doing my gyvlon screed advise against this way just coz the clips come loose but wouldn't a load of aluminium tape hold the pipes down well to kingspan?

    Cheers
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2016 edited
     
    FAIR WARNING: These videos are definitely not safe for work, young children or people who are politically correct fanatics because they contain imagery and audio of conversations on a real live building site, including some swearing and sexual references.

    Cubbs, see if you recognise the accent on the big guy with the bandaged finger..


    laying ufh
    https://youtu.be/tnH4B-nhU84

    pouring gyvlon screed:
    https://youtu.be/Pn3nxKeAccI

    THe eagle eyed will notice a difference in the pipes and laying style. The first vid contains pert-al-pert, the second is pex that is filled with an antifreeze solution. The pert-al-pert is laid with clips only, the pex was pressed into clip rails and then shaped using additional clips. The pert is laid countercurrent, and the pex is serpentine, allegedly you get better heat distribution from spiralling into the centre of the zone and then spiralling back out in between what you spiralled in (countercurrent). These vids show two separate houses actually, different fitting teams, hence variation. Regards damaging pipe on mesh, it's possible though this pipe is incredibly tough. On insulation you'd never manage it - the insulation deforms before the pipe. On mesh, if you stood a heel down hard on the pipe as it crossed the mesh perpendicularly you probably would damage it. I understand why people put mesh, to reduce cracking risk, but my take on it is that cracking probably comes from thermal shock i.e. people treating it like radiators and blasting its heat up and down twice a day to suit the times theyre in the house. I can't see why a slab that is all warmed to the same constant temp should crack - it hasn't cracked while it's been lying there unheated
    In terms of extra strength from the mesh, I currently have 2 tons of plasterboard sitting on a pair of pump trucks on my 50mm screed and it's in one piece and I don't think a domestic use will exceed that loading

    The staple/cliprail method is very fast.. took 4 guys about 3 hours to lay 180 sqm including connecting the manifolds and testing. The lead guys were so good they could staple with one hand behind while paying the pipe out with other hand and feet in front but it generally proceeded fastest to have a labourer on the staple gun. If your guys are whining about the clips maybe they should be less ham fisted/clod hopping and pick their feet up when they walk on the pipe instead of kicking the clips loose. They might also have been using the wrong clips, as they come in different lengths. Clip rails help with spacing, Hugh you can see in my vid he guys just used a rough foots width to gauge the lay. It doesn't have to be bang on and the laid result will never be millimetre accurate to the drawings, with all its "light bulb effect" loop return shapes. The pert-Al-pert is really nice to work with because it stays bent. Pex is a bit more unruly but the fitter likes it because it's clear and he can thus see air bubbles.. He doesn't blast through with mains pressure you see, cos he puts an inhibited glycol mix in using a hand pump, hence the benefit of being able to see bubbles

    Other than that, much of a muchness

    eBay seller psw trade sells pert Al pert for 50quid a hundred metre roll with a bag of staples free. They are just loose staples though, you can see in the vid the gun staples are attached in a strip for ease of reloading. I only needed the odd roll for my upstairs and I wasn't stapling it but if you're getting a large amount of ufh kit it makes sense to get it all from one place. Wundatrade have good prices
    • CommentAuthorcubbs
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2016
     
    Food for thought there.

    The vids wont play. Says private.

    Is it a manx fella on your vid?

    What length clips do you recommend for 100mm Kingspan stlye insulation?

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2016
     
    sorry bout that, thought I'd set them both as unlisted.. one of them was the wrong vid anyway. I've sorted those links out now
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2016
     
    the PIR clips are about 2 inches long, you might see the young fella pull a rack of them out of the box and reload the stapler..

    are you sure you only want 100mm PIR? I usually see closer to 200mm being recommended..
  13.  
    You won't need the clip gun
    • CommentAuthorShft
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2016
     
    I used pipe clips straight into PIR. The merchant I bought the ufh from supplied a decoiler and clip gun on loan to do the install - I'd recommend both.

    Just make sure your clips are long enough and they will hold fine and take foot traffic with no issues. I think mine were 60-70mm. You can push them in by hand but you could also use a manual screwdriver instead of a gun for most jobs - there's definitely a preferred method even if both have the same result.

    1m2 seems to require about 6l/m of pipe @ 150mm centres (I'm sure someone more experienced will correct me if that's wrong) - and if your feet are regularly sized then leave/connect the pipe tail at the manifold and just work your way around the perimeter of the zone and leave a foots gap when you return to your initially laid pipe and continue to spiral your way into the centre - you'll make an s-shape in the centre, then simply make your way back out filling the 300mm space left on the way in.

    Really simple with a bit of thought and common sense.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJan 30th 2016
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite>You won't need the clip gun</blockquote>

    No, but you'd have a sore thumb. For the sake of 150 quid (including enough staples for the job) I'm not sure that I'd bother faffing round with pushing them in manually.

    Having watched my dad mess around for years making life thoroughly hard work for himself, trying to save a few quid by not buying the proper tools for the job, I've decided on the 'all the gear and no idea' approach.. :)

    Plasterboard lifter was the best 90quid I've spent recently. would have been cheap at twice the price the number of cross words it's silenced. 2700 boards, 3m ceilings, whose stupid idea was that?:)
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJan 30th 2016 edited
     
    I consider my job a paid work out :bigsmile: , a morning dressing pipes along a floor on my hands and knees is relatively a 'walk in the park' for me. Yes if I did more than 2 a year via the clip method I'd probably get a gun. For a diy one off I'd wouldn't
    Cubbs if using the mesh method no protection is required between mesh and pipe
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJan 30th 2016
     
    Well, I suppose everyone has their own idea of relative worth. At 6'6 the idea of crawling over 300sqm on my hands and knees pushing clips in with my thumb is anathema enough that I'd consider a 150 quid on a "costs thousands" job to be money well spent..

    You also need to consider that cubbs will probably only do this once, and if he uses the mesh method, the cost of the mesh will exceed the cost of the clip gun
  18.  
    Or buy the staple gun and sell afterwards. Makes the job so much easier. I used one and its worth every penny. Oh and its now up for sale if anyone needs one...:wink:

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