Green Building Forum - Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:29:46 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302448#Comment_302448 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302448#Comment_302448 Thu, 13 Jul 2023 22:25:11 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Grant Shapps is quoted as talking about high costs, long timescales and safey problems. Thinks hydrogen will mostly be for industrial energy storage and transport.All a little bit vague

One of the experimental 'hydrogen village' schemes has cancelled but the other two are carrying on.

No comments on whether this means heat pumps for everyone, or something else (keep burning nat gas?)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/13/grant-shapps-net-zero-hydrogen-natural-gas-heat-homes/
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/13/uk-poised-to-drop-plans-for-hydrogen-to-replace-natural-gas-in-homes]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302451#Comment_302451 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302451#Comment_302451 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 08:22:23 +0100 revor
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jcb+hydrogen+engine&docid=603544983609558942&mid=2D2DE240944D2CAB6A482D2DE240944D2CAB6A48&view=detail&FORM=VIRE]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302455#Comment_302455 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302455#Comment_302455 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:00:49 +0100 fostertom But our great thought-leader has concluded "I think hydrogen will be used for storing energy. You won’t have to switch off windfarms when you don’t need the power because you can turn it into hydrogen and use it later.”

Imagine the Department pros patiently demonstrating how the thermal economics do and don't work, while industry lobbyists and party donors whisper in his other ear. At last, Tory/sometimes LibDem Whitby rebels dangerously so 'the science' is wheeled in to justify a u-turn.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302459#Comment_302459 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302459#Comment_302459 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 11:42:00 +0100 WillInAberdeen https://labourlist.org/2022/03/reeves-calls-for-ambitious-hydrogen-targets-to-increase-uk-energy-security/

Think it was the costs that became the problem. Gov recently withdrew plans to add a levy onto domestic energy bills to pay for the hydrogen infrastructure, so there's no obvious source of funding for it just now. https://www.edie.net/hydrogen-not-a-silver-bullet-for-net-zero-heating-and-transport-mps-warn/]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302460#Comment_302460 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302460#Comment_302460 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:02:28 +0100 djh Posted By: WillInAberdeenThink it was the costs that became the problem. Gov recently withdrew plans to add a levy onto domestic energy bills to pay for the hydrogen infrastructureCosts always seem to be the problem with any government plans. There ought to be a way to make sure that politicians and civil servants are numerically competent.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302462#Comment_302462 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302462#Comment_302462 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:35:52 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Heat pumps are currently more expensive to install than gas boilers, those costs show up in installation bills.

Problem is, which bills do we want to pay more for, and how should either get levied/ subsidised by govt? Some people are looking at this balance in the round (see commons select cttee report via edie.net link above) but there is no awareness for voters.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302463#Comment_302463 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302463#Comment_302463 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:55:14 +0100 owlman ]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302464#Comment_302464 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302464#Comment_302464 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 13:29:01 +0100 WillInAberdeen
https://www.science.org/content/article/hidden-hydrogen-earth-may-hold-vast-stores-renewable-carbon-free-fuel]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302465#Comment_302465 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302465#Comment_302465 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 13:48:54 +0100 owlman
From Euracoal:-
"The UK has identified hard coal resources of 3 910 million tonnes, although total resources could be as large as 187 billion tonnes"]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302466#Comment_302466 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302466#Comment_302466 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:51:31 +0100 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeenProblem is, which bills do we want to pay more for, and how should either get levied/ subsidised by govt?It's still political suicide (gift to the gutter media, red flag to the ideological financial markets) to mention Modern Monetary Theory (except as May's Magic Money Tree - code to those in the know) even though it's universal practice already - that govts of countries having their own sovereign currency (UK, US, Japan etc, EU but not individual EU states, and not lesser currencies which are just rebranded dollars) are free to print money, to not treat taxation as the only income that the books have to be 'balanced' against, and to not even borrow (at interest, vast free gift to the rich/banks). So it's not nec a matter of "which bills do we want to pay more for, and how should either get levied".

The conventional/ideological wisdom is that printing money is sure to increase inflation, which it sure did in many cases in history, like post-WW1 Germany. That because it's assumed that the 'paper' money will go into consumers' pockets but there will be no extra goods to spend it on, so prices just get bid upward. However, the 'paper' money can equally be chanelled into increased production, consumer income remaining static, which would be deflationary (tho increased production would mean increased employment/wages as well).

Just as the current set of 'tools' to manage the economy have to be (?) wisely deployed, amongst potential pitfalls and unintended consequences, so any MMT scheme to print money e.g. to finance 'green' hydrogen or any other desirable policy, would have to be carefully designed and regulated, to minimise the default way that useful cash from govt (and from the real economy of investment, work and sales) gets syphoned off soon enough as fuel for the parasitic financial-speculation un-economy, locked away whence never to return to useful cash, e.g in the arms race to maximise stock values (tokens of relative power), futilely inflating indicies but leaving corporations' relative valuations unchanged.

Biden's 'supply side' spending packages seem a well judged at-least-halfway-house to such MMT policy, tho he's still gifts massive passive income to the lenders he borrows from, rather than just printing the dosh. Unlimited (just ask, and we'll add a bit) US military and police spending gets patriotically nodded through, thus 'unbalanced', while any social spending gets shredded as 'how's it going to be paid for?'.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302468#Comment_302468 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302468#Comment_302468 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 16:30:21 +0100 djh Posted By: fostertomIt's still political suicide (gift to the gutter media, red flag to the ideological financial markets) to mention Modern Monetary Theory (except as May's Magic Money Tree - code to those in the know) even though it's universal practice already - that govts of countries having their own sovereign currency (UK, US, Japan etc, EU but not individual EU states, and not lesser currencies which are just rebranded dollars) are free to print money, to not treat taxation as the only income that the books have to be 'balanced' against, and to not even borrow (at interest, vast free gift to the rich/banks).Correct, so I stopped reading at that point.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302469#Comment_302469 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302469#Comment_302469 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 16:39:07 +0100 djh Posted By: WillInAberdeenThere will be costs either way : thermodynamics says that hydrogen is more expensive than the electricity/gas it is made from, and the electrolyser plants have to get paid for somehow. Those costs show up in monthly energy bills.

Heat pumps are currently more expensive to install than gas boilers, those costs show up in installation bills.Yes, but it's not just those costs, and especially their relative magnitudes, that matter. There's also the question of the total energy budget and the feasibility of the demands.

Problem is, which bills do we want to pay more for, and how should either get levied/ subsidised by govt? Some people are looking at this balance in the round (see commons select cttee report via edie.net link above)
The select committee's idea of round is somewhat square. While they talk about the possibility of hydrogen for long range trucks, the EU changes its laws to permit heavier electrically-powered lorries so they are cost competitive per tonne loaded. So pie in the sky against reality. Burning anything, including hydrogen, in air produces oxides of nitrogen, so needs limiting anyway in urban areas.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302474#Comment_302474 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302474#Comment_302474 Fri, 14 Jul 2023 17:44:17 +0100 fostertom Posted By: djhCorrectCurious choice of word - does that mean
Posted By: fostertomIt's still political suicide
or the several following statements of para1?]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302484#Comment_302484 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302484#Comment_302484 Sat, 15 Jul 2023 15:19:06 +0100 jms452
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fbusiness%2F2023%2F07%2F13%2Fwhite-hydrogen-disrupt-global-energy-net-zero%2F

Apparently it's incredibly cheap, once you've drilled a well it carries on coming out indefinitely and there might be loads of it.

There's some grains of truth in there but I suspect that this is more intended to add just enough uncertainty to justify continued inaction on electrifying heating and cars.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302485#Comment_302485 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302485#Comment_302485 Sat, 15 Jul 2023 16:33:35 +0100 fostertom Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302487#Comment_302487 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302487#Comment_302487 Sat, 15 Jul 2023 20:31:34 +0100 djh Posted By: jms452Apparently it's incredibly cheap, once you've drilled a well it carries on coming out indefinitely and there might be loads of it.

There's some grains of truth in there but I suspect that this is more intended to add just enough uncertainty to justify continued inaction on electrifying heating and cars.To a first approximation, burning any mined fuel is going to add to global warming. :devil: But if it is real at least it will kill off the blue and green efforts. :bigsmile:]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302490#Comment_302490 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302490#Comment_302490 Sun, 16 Jul 2023 09:43:42 +0100 jms452 Posted By: djhBut if it is real at least it will kill off the blue and green efforts

We need a lot of H2 both as a chemical feedstock and hopefully to decarbonise steel production.]]> Hydrogen boilers - on the back burner? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302494#Comment_302494 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17900&Focus=302494#Comment_302494 Sun, 16 Jul 2023 11:11:34 +0100 WillInAberdeen
The government's concern about using hydrogen for the domestic heating sector, is that the street-by-street changes to infrastructure and distribution network will be expensive, take too long and have safety problems. Can't see how geological hydrogen solves those, any differently than electrolytic or CCS hydrogen does.

Also this week, Nat grid released their annual update to their "Future energy scenarios". Actually fairly upbeat, they think on the supply side that low-carbon supplies are developing on track for net zero electricity by 2035 and general net zero by 2050, or even a few years early.

They have two scenarios where that energy supply is mostly distributed as electricity, or distributed partly (30%) as hydrogen, both work.

The unknown is with the users taking up that supply fast enough IE societal readiness to switch to electric/hydrogen aviation/steelmaking/heating/transport. They have two scenarios where uptake is faster, or slower (in which case 2050 is missed).

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/future-energy-scenarios]]>