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Politics: Another election: am I the first to mention it

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    • CommentAuthormw116
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    Posted By: owlmanEd; I don't think EU citizens have been treated badly, AFAIK I think the Government refuses to discuss the issue as a one sided thing, until the EU commits to reciprocal arrangements for UK citizens settled within mainland EU Europe. It appears that its the EU that has been dragging its heels. I don't see a problem with that UK stance.


    I understand the UK Government pretty much immediately said - we want to retain the rights for EU citizens to remain in the UK if the EU will grant the same for UK citizens in the EU. The EU evidently felt that this was an unbelievably sensible thing to do, so promptly decided not to agree. It does amuse me that everyone blames the UK Government for this...
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    Well, yes, it's bureaucracy gone mad but I can't help thinking the individuals involved felt free to deal with the case in this way as a result of the vote. E.g., replying “prepare to leave” rather than “re-apply when your passport's available”.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    Posted By: mw116if the EU will grant the same for UK citizens in the EU
    Which ignores the fact that residency for non-EU citizens in EU countries is not a matter for the EU - it's a matter for the individual countries.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    I think it IS a matter for the EU, and not individual countries as you suggest Ed,-- and we are still in the EU.

    Acquiring the right of permanent residence
    As an EU national:
    , you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years. If you fulfil this requirement, you can apply for a permanent residence document, which confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    Right, so why are they telling this Dutch woman that she needs to prepare to leave?

    Clearly, British citizens have the right of residence in any EU country (give or take a few conditions like having the cash or earnings to support themselves) up until we leave. It's what happens after we leave that's open to discussion, when they'll have the same rights as somebody from, say, Australia. I.e., none unless they've already established the rights to permanent residence.

    Anybody who hasn't, for whatever reason would be a matter for the national government in the same way that residence in Scotland for an Australian is a matter for the UK government, not the EU, at the moment.
    • CommentAuthormw116
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    One would imagine that that's the standard reply when an application is refused. As the EU national route is different, either a) someone has made a mistake and used the non-EU response, or b) as an EU national they aren't expected to apply via that route as they don't need to as they have a right to remain as a result of us being a member of the EU, so there is no suitable EU response...
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesWell, yes, it's bureaucracy gone mad


    reminds me of a certain ship docked in Bristol - SS Great Britain.

    gg
    :devil:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    (SS) Great Britain - a dream of past glory - to visit, have a little shudder, then go home to the real world.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    I haven't seen her; SS Great Britain, is something wrong? Have I missed something? I guess so detecting the cynicism.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    "The president of the European parliament has said Britain would be welcomed back with open arms if voters change their minds about Brexit on 8 June, challenging Theresa May’s claim that “there is no turning back” after article 50."

    Sailing very close to interference in a national election,- I thought that sort of thing was diplomatically taboo.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2017
     
    Posted By: owlmanSailing very close to interference in a national election,- I thought that sort of thing was diplomatically taboo.
    Makes it clear though, as long as it is true.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    Exactly - if only politicians would state true position, instead of conniving with
    Posted By: owlmandiplomatic[ally] taboo
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    Predictive text--Damn!:angry:
  14.  
    diplomatic[ally]

    Is that like a mews court where ambassadors live?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: fostertom</cite>Exactly - if only politicians would state true position,

    I agree, as far a National politics goes, but at an International level, it's how wars start. Some things are best said behind closed doors.
    Is he a politician, or just a civil servant, I don't know how you describe the EU hierarchy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    Posted By: owlmanat an International level, it's how wars start
    Wars start because one (or both) sides think the other is manoevring to f**k them over - fertile ground for lies, propaganda, credulity.
    Neither side wants their electorate to know what's truly going on, otherwise support for war might evaporate in reasonability.
    'Behind closed doors' keeps it all in the hands of both sides' oh-so-wise-and-caring power brokers (who if you trace it back far enough agree together it's time for another war).
    When will the rest us put a stop to this 6000yr merry-go-round? Probably in our lifetimes.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2017
     
    fostertom
    12 hours ago
    quote
    Wars start because one (or both) sides think the other is manoeuvring to f**k them over - fertile ground for lies, propaganda, credulity.


    That's precisely the point.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2017
     
    So - keep it all secret from propagandised populations, reality only stated 'behind closed doors'?
    Did that 'work' thro 20C, the bloodiest century ever, which we congratulate ourselves to have reduced in scale and location steadily so far in 21C, but still 2nd-worst by far?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2017
     
    No; But diplomacy has its place, and in this instance, public manoeuvring " to f..k the other over", from whichever side only riles the other half of the population.
    So Yes such utterings are best kept private, more especially from so-called Heads of State.

    It wouldn't be the first time the EU hierarchy or their supporters keep demanding re-runs of referendums, until, "they get it right", and those original remarks are little more than a subtle attempt to influence votes, and not worthy of someone in such a position.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    It's unusual for wars to start between stable democracies

    You need a good dictator on one side or the other usually

    A bit of imperialism is always good for a few "police actions"

    Still, back on election track - events of the last few days have been interesting - the train wreck interviews are piling up nicely

    PMTM just needs to hold her nerve and the Blairites to smile sweetly and say nothing and come June 9th the bitchfest and blood letting will be of epic proportions - the "pea poo" will have spoken. Which might just allow a rebuilding of the Labour Party into a credible opposition

    I'm sure Tim will have a few lower lip wobbles over the coming weeks and the Wee Krankie is bound to go off on a few "nasty Tory" rants instead of answering the questions - which will be hard and difficult from Ruthie - but the crap spilling out of the Islington Echo chamber will be fantastic to behold.

    Happy days

    Barney
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    It's telling that out of the four new-trend major popular-disenchantment votes against 'the establishment' - the Scottish referendum, Brexit, Trump and now France - only England/NI (and Wales - fools) has ended up with an ultra-establishment government. Are we happy about that? Are we about to do something about that mistake?
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    I strongly suspect that many wouldn't view that as a "mistake" Tom

    We are leaving the EU - most people want a strong government to act in that matter - and in the wider best interests of the UK

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    Posted By: barneyWe are leaving the EU - most people want a strong government to act in that matter - and in the wider best interests of the UK

    Perhaps worth observing that given the UK electoral system a wining party can manage a 'strong government' (i.e. substantially more than half the MPs) with the votes of much less than 'most people' (i.e. more than half of the electorate)...
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    A government so strong that any organisation speaking out against Brexit is instantly banned from Number 10....
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    Well, we don't have PR - only FPTP

    It what we have as a democratic system - it's served us well for a long time

    I'm perfectly happy with that

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    It's crap. It's resulted in stupid things like Labour getting a huge percentage of votes in Scotland and practically no MPs. UKIP getting 4 million votes and 1 (now 0) MPs. No wonder people feel disconnected from politics and rebelled in the Referendum. High time for a change. Other countries manage good stable governments with various forms of PR, why can't we?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    Posted By: barneymost people want a strong government to act in that matter
    What is meant by 'strong'?
    Does it mean unmovable, unyielding or willing to negotiate on an equal footing?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    Wot we want is doctrinaire, as in PR = Public Relations
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2017
     
    What is meant by strong? Well if you build something in sand it is essential that you bury your head really, really deep if you want it to be strong,

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