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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorsmudger
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    I was about to order some Rointe Towel rails for our bathrooms (running off economy 10) to combat chill and counter mould on walls (solid block, north facing). If the green deal is ever resurrected we will externally insulate but in meantime we need to do something this winter.

    An older post mentioned infrared radiant heaters as an alternative (in ceiling, not what we want to do). I've come across 'mirror' types that go on the wall but struggling to differentiate between them and they are also more expensive than the rointes.

    Will they do the job I want and any seen any in the flesh to be able to recommend any?
    Ecolec, greenage, ecolec, agadon and stove centre have been thrown up by g**gle.

    thx
    • CommentAuthorsmudger
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    Forget this, talked myself out of it.

    Most have high surface temperature (100 deg plus, only a few at 70 deg and could only find one at 45/55 deg C). Very limited options for large out put requiring more than one panel (most 300-600w). Once calculated on basis of low thermal wall insulation then output recommendations went up to 1.2kw, so not really low power and can't see it being cheaper than electric towel rail. Plus huge difference on costs from a few hundred to £800 or so, almost 3x towel rail costs. Not all IP rated either.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    As a general question, would a fan type heater reduce the occurrence of condensation/mould? Just a thought.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    I would go for a fan and for comfort, even luxury underfloor heating, even electric and on a timer of course
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    Moving air is the last thing you want when wet. Maximum radiant feels best and subjective 'comfort' air temp is then several degrees lower. Underfloor is great; infra red can also feel good even when air is quite cool.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    You need the fan after
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    Posted By: fostertomMoving air is the last thing you want when wet.
    Personally I actually quite like bathroom fan heaters. My question was more on the physics - if you move the warm air around, will that reduce the likelihood of condensing on the wall and encourage the damp air to be extracted out?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    Won't it just move the air's water content to the wall faster? Simply blowing moist air about won't re-evaporate condensation. With warm air, the walls' temp lags air temp, so provides a condensing surface; with radiant, the walls and objects (you) get warmed, potentially even above air temp, so don't attract condensation.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2014
     
    I found that condensation all flies out the window if it is open while it is being made, seems odd I know, now with MVHR we have no more problems .
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2014 edited
     
    In terms of reducing condensation, the point of a fan is to equalize the surface air temps and that is just one of the reasons MVHR works. If you use the open window approach all the obvious steam 'flies out of the window' but the the room cools, you shut the window and you a get a little condensation just where you don't want it - of course if you forget to shut the window you heat the sky..... Moving air on wet naked bodies is only good if 'exercising'.....Infra red work best in a bathroom for comfort but are a ridiculous price to buy, and run, it seemed to me and now to smudger too. Hence MVHR (or single room HR) seems best as low air velocity (ie on boost but is still relatively very low air speeds) but the boost speed will sort out the room before the condensation hangs around long enough for mould to grow. Of course this is why extractor fans are the only main stream solution - however if the hall or bedroom are lower temp than the bathroom (normally is so), or the bathroom door is relatively air tight and the windows are leaky, then cool air enters from the hall/bedroom and/or around the window causing higher risk of condensation in the ceiling corners and adjacent to the window frame and on the glass perimeter (esp if not warm edge) - so that's why HR is so much better than the next best choice of an extractor fan because very little diff in air pressure and HR inlet temp is no less than the bedroom/hall and may be higher.

    That is the state of play as far as I can see from the multiple posts on here about such matters and my own personal experience/battle with mould.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2014
     
    Posted By: GotanewlifeInfra red work best in a bathroom for comfort but are a ridiculous price to buy, and run
    Can't you get those 'flying saucer' ceiling radiant heaters any more? Magificently zany-tech styling and cheap as anything. You only run it for quarter of an hour while you're in there, and heat loss stops instantly it's off, as it barely heats either the air or the fabric - pure sunny-ski-slope radiant - nice!
    • CommentAuthorsmudger
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2014
     
    The primary reason for the heating is to stop the mould - otherwise we could tough out the coldness ourselves (as we have done for 3 winters).

    We've come to the conclusion we need to heat the house continuously in winter rather than off and on and avoid cold/warm spots (i.e. counterintuitvely not switching off rads in unused rooms as the moisture and warm air just 'flows' there and hence mould growing on cold walls). The green deal fiasco has also put an end to our ashp plans as well (doesn't work unless house is well insulated) and no manufacturer we spoke to recommended single room heat recovery in an old leaky uninsulated house. We don't find the 'moisture flies out the window - even in one bathroom which has two windows and hence cross flow it can be over an hour before visible steam has gone and even then we are left with moisture streaming down walls and a very cold room. And this is on windy exmoor.

    Our windows don't have trickle vents and chimneys are sealed up with stoves /register plates so concluded the building is 'breathing' less than it should. The layout of building precludes PIV, as there is no central staircase and and we have an annexe as well. We know we have to address ventilation and have selected the following:

    http://www.vapourflow.com/product/vapour-vent-passive-dehumidifier/ -
    for vents in the bedrooms and living rooms

    http://www.vapourflow.com/product/wad-b-warm-air-dehumidifier-bathroom-fan/ -
    extracts in bathroom when it needs to, otherwise supplies slightly warmed air into the building (which will pick up the heated air from the towel rails and at least stop cold air from hallways etc coming into the bathroom).

    plus extracts in kitchens etc.

    If anyone has used vapourflow fans it would give me more confidence to order them as they are very expensive (and total is working out more than a PIV install).

    We are also going to install a quantum storage heater (on economy 10) at bottom of stairs to try to maintain a minimum level of heat and thus keep walls above 16 deg C and avoid walls developing mould.

    I selected the Rointe as they were the only high output (aesthetically pleasing) tower rails I could find.

    We do have a wet radiator system but its powered by a lowly 6kw amptec boiler so we only use it when we have cheap electricity but it will, along with the wood stoves which we use the most, boost temps when needed in the evenings or in the mornings.

    Am I mad? (about to spend thousands on kit and having a wobble!)
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2014
     
    If you only put the heat on while you are in the bathroom it won't make condensation any less likely. You need the walls and windows to be warm the whole time that there is high humidity in there. So either run an extractor fan to export the water quickly or prewarm and keep the room warm until it escapes via trickle vents etc.

    We love our MHRV because of the constant level of ventilation it provides. This seems to keep humidity levels much more constant than trickle vents and intermittent use of extractors.
    • CommentAuthorsmudger
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2014
     
    Thats what the vapour flow does but without the heat recovery- provides continuous fresh air and only extracts when humidity sensor says it needs to (based on absolute humidity, not relative). It seems a clever unit but comes at a price. Our aim is to warm house to maintain 16 deg not switch heating on and off.
  1.  
    Posted By: fostertomCan't you get those 'flying saucer' ceiling radiant heaters any more?
    http://www.dealec.co.uk/acatalog/beha-tvt1500-halogen-terrace-conservatory-heater.html - what a co-incidence - never seen before but just came accross them!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2014 edited
     
  2.  
    Apologies for resurrecting this old thread, hope it's not frowned upon. I was looking for information on the Vapourflow WAD-B bathroom fan, and this is the only thread that has come up. Smudger, just wondering whether you have bought these products in the end and if so, how have they performed? Would you recommend Vapourflow?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Posted By: smudger

    Our windows don't have trickle vents and chimneys are sealed up with stoves /register plates so concluded the building is 'breathing' less than it should. The layout of building precludes PIV, as there is no central staircase and and we have an annexe as well. We know we have to address ventilation and have selected the following:

    http://www.vapourflow.com/product/vapour-vent-passive-dehumidifier/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.vapourflow.com/product/vapour-vent-passive-dehumidifier/-
    for vents in the bedrooms and living rooms

    http://www.vapourflow.com/product/wad-b-warm-air-dehumidifier-bathroom-fan/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.vapourflow.com/product/wad-b-warm-air-dehumidifier-bathroom-fan/-
    extracts in bathroom when it needs to, otherwise supplies slightly warmed air into the building (which will pick up the heated air from the towel rails and at least stop cold air from hallways etc coming into the bathroom).

    plus extracts in kitchens etc.

    If anyone has used vapourflow fans it would give me more confidence to order them as they are very expensive (and total is working out more than a PIV install).

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