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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2022
     
    I lifted some floorboards expecting to find them on joists but they were in fact on battens over a solid concrete floor - see image below:

    https://ibb.co/YhVksGX

    The room is early 20th century, solid walls (approx. 330mm) and a double layer of slate damp proof course (the concrete slab appears to breach this looking from at heights from the outside. There are two visible air bricks, one above and one below the slates so I assume the concrete was a late addition.

    Without wanting to rip up the slab, does anyone have suggestions as the best way to insulate - ideally reusing as many floorboards as possible and replacing the ones that are damaged when lifting but happy for alternative recommendations.

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2022
     
    Floating floor? What will the floor finish be?
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2022
     
    I was hoping to keep floor height the same as leads into hallway and already a 1cm lip. Current floor height is 50-55mm.

    Initial hope was to use as many of existing floorboards as possible so place celotex between battens and fix floorboards to those.

    If there are other ideas/approaches that would a) allow me to reuse floorboards or b) not reuse floorboards but be better from an insulation/effort perspective happy to hear them!
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2022
     
    Dig out the concrete! Compact new base Add 2 or 300mm EPS, 125mm concrete with grids, battens and your floorboards.
  1.  
    Posted By: michaelfWithout wanting to rip up the slab, does anyone have suggestions as the best way to insulate - ideally reusing as many floorboards as possible and replacing the ones that are damaged when lifting but happy for alternative recommendations.

    What I have done in the past is
    Posted By: michaelfInitial hope was to use as many of existing floorboards as possible so place celotex between battens and fix floorboards to those.

    Except that I have used EPS and XPS.
    I would replace the battens and use a thickness that matches the insulation thickness and fix the battens to the slab and space them to match the insulation slabs (500mm ?). I use hammer in fixings (combined screw and plastic dowel) which makes fixing quite quick.
    If the batten and insulation thickness match then the boards are fully supported.
    You could put a DPC down first if you wanted or thought it needed.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2022
     
    Thanks glad to hear I'm on the right track.

    Digging up the concrete and replacing with a limecrete slab and ufh would be the dream but time/money/current heating system don't allow!

    Should there be a membrane both below and above the insulation?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2022
     
    What membrane? Air tightness, vapour or damp membrane?

    I like combined airtightness and vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation.
  2.  
    Systems like this are available - slabs of insulation to go between the battens, with channels moulded into them to take a thin ufh pipe, and aluminium foil on top to diffuse out the heat.

    https://omnie.co.uk/foilboard-batten/
    https://www.theunderfloorheatingstore.com/prowarm-foiled-faced-in-joist-batten-system

    Not fitted these products myself (yet!) and others are available...

    Tapered oak thresholds are available to take up height differences between rooms without tripping over, we had iirc 40mm difference between different parts of our last house, which were taken up by two 20mm tapers at either end of a hallway.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2022
     
    I had a carpenter over to quote for removing the existing boards and told him of my plan to replace battens and insulate between...

    He said this would leave the battens open to dry rot. Given that this solution is suggested in the links above seemed odd but does anyone have thoughts on this?
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2022 edited
     
    I would scrap the battens and just put down PUR or XPS of suitable compressive strength (both materials are available in 'flooring' grades which are stronger than normal). I think stronger XPS is available than PUR. That avoids both rot and bridging issues.
    Membrane on top to prevent air and moisture movement (The concrete is probably just sat on the ground so not all that dry) sealed round the edges: OrconF and/or tape. Then flooring. Either these boards or something which clips together and avoids spreading at the gaps. If you keep the current boards then you may need to cut a 20-25mm batten into the insulation (rout out a space) above the membrane to keep it dry, so you have something to attach the boards to and stop them slopping about.

    Tony is right that digging it all out and putting 200-300mm of insulation down there is a much better job (and doing something about the bridge at the wall - external perimeter insulation or cutting in insulating blocks). But that's a lot of work and mess. As you have a convenient batten+board height of 55mm just sticking 40mm of insulation down with 20mm of boards on top (and maybe shaving a few door bottoms to make it fit) would be easy and effective. If you can raise the floor a bit more (would another 20mm really be a problem with e.g. external thresholds?) then that's half as good again (60mm insulation is not bad in a floor - might even be good enough for UFH?).
  3.  
    Posted By: wookeyI would scrap the battens and just put down PUR or XPS of suitable compressive strength (both materials are available in 'flooring' grades which are stronger than normal). I think stronger XPS is available than PUR. That avoids both rot and bridging issues.

    +1
    I have also used 80grade EPS without problems.

    Fine for a floating floor but if michaelf is wanting to use the original floor boards then battens will be needed to fix the boards
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2022
     
    I wouldn't use PUR because of my idealogical reasons I've explained before. Under floors I'd use EPS rather than XPS because it supposedly can deal with damp better. It's available in a wide range of ratings.

    PS Using a jackhammer is good fun if you do decide to dig up the slab, very therapeutic, but as others have said that is more work and mess.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2022
     
    Thanks all for suggestions. Looks as though we won't be going for floorboards after all as my wife has decided she doesn't want wooden floor in this room but a microcement finish instead. For this I'd need some kind of self-levelling concrete first.

    As far as I can work out there are two options:

    1) Battens fixed to concrete (I've seen composite ones that could be better than timber) with insulation between, fix cement board over the top and pour self levelling compound.

    2) Fix jackoboard (or similar) straight onto concrete floor and pour self levelling compound over.

    Any thoughts? Is there a third (or fourth) option?
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2022
     
    Jackoboard with self levelling will get punctured by table/chair legs, heels etc. I would imagine 12mm cement fibre board supported by insulation and batten would ok, but Id ask Hardiebacker to confirm
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2022
     
    Joins will be a problem
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2022
     
    I have contacted Hardie to get some thoughts. I assume from what you've said that whilst jacko can be used as a base for tiles it wouldn't be strong enough to support the self leveller by itself?
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2022
     
    Its more the lack of strength of floor leveller to carry a point load and spread it over a wide area of Jackoboard. With tiles youve got a very strong tile, likely 10mm thick, plus a further 5mm of tile adhesive.

    I think you can get some high performance screeds that would go over your insulation but how thin these go down to I dont know
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2022
     
    Thanks. Looks as though tiles may be the way to go instead then. In which case, what are people's thoughts/experience of the jackoboard approach or battens with insulation infill and cement board over?
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2022
     
    Jackoboard is intended as an insulated tile backer so is a proven system. Did Hardie backer get back to you?
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2022
     
    Hardie have now replied to say that they wouldn't be able to recommend it even with the insulation infill and would need ply/chipboard before laying cement board.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2022
     
    Response from Ardex:

    Putting a micro cement on top of a SLC on a foam cementitious board can lead to failure particularly when wheeled loads are being rolled over the top or point loading, since the board could compress.

    You can apply micro cement finishes directly to concrete or over SLC applied over concrete such as Ardex K301 if left to cure for several days to achieve maximum hardness.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2022
     
    "For this I'd need some kind of self-levelling concrete first."

    Not sure that's actually true..
    • CommentAuthorRick_M
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2022 edited
     
    Should a radon barrier be considered when designing a floor?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2022
     
    Yes in radon areas, there is a lot of guidance on this.

    My view is that radon barriers are not as effective as thought. The radon has escaped through hundreds of meters of rock, often granite. It is a tiny atom that can and does go through polythene! A better plan is to design in a labyrinth with a sump, then use a part time fan to suck or blow the radon out. It is a heavy atom that it tends to sink in air and can be collected and removed safely to outside.
    • CommentAuthormichaelf
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2023
     
    Back again! Have decided against the microcement and so now going with LVT which means (I think) that I can remove the battens and go with a floating floor as suggested here - https://www.kingspan.com/gb/en/knowledge-articles/a-guide-to-constructing-a-floating-floor/

    So I'd end up with:

    - Floor finish - LVT
    - Tongue and Groove flooring (typically 18 mm T&G chipboard or cement/gypsum fibre boards)
    - Separation layer (500 gauge polythene)
    - Insulation laid continuously
    - Damp proof membrane if required
    - Screed (if existing)
    - Concrete slab

    Above I see lots of suggestions for XPS/EPS instead of PIR? What are the pro's and con's of each?

    The linked guide suggests a DPC on the slab before laying the insulation, but I think I read somewhere else on the forum that this could lead to a 'bucket' effect and so better just to place above the insulation. Also, some of the guides I've seen for XPS/EPS talk about securing it to the floor with flexible adhesive which obviously wouldn't be possible if there was a dpc? Or is it fine just 'floating'?
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2023
     
    Pro of PIR is better insulation per thickness (approx 1/3rd better than XPS/EPS).
    XPS pro is stronger grades, T&G edges to help keep it all flat. EPS is lowest embodied carbon. Not sure if the low-carbon stuff is available in flooring grades. EPS and XPS approx same insulation value - the denser flooring grades tend to be slightly worse insulation.

    PUR/PIR is less waterproof than XPS/EPS and may get waterlogged over decades if it's soggy enough down there. If using that you'd want it above the DPC rather than below it, notwithstanding the mentioned 'bucket' risk. That's presumably why kingspan recommend that DPC location.

    Floating floor is fine so long as the base is flat enough. If it isn't you will get 'bouncy' spots. Basically add some material to make it flat within 3-5mm before laying DPC and insulation. Self-levelling compound is good. Sand blinding has been suggested too. Presumably also fine so long as the ants never find it.

    For the flooring layer the Cellecta gypsum boards seem good screedboard 20 or hideck 18. Immune to water unlike chipboard but no doubt much expense. They also transmit heat very well so good over UFH but you are not proposing that.
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