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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorpgrbff
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    I'm in Italy so I have , or rather had before 2014, good access to sun.
    I have a 500l Akvaterm solar plus which will be dedicted to DHW using my two other 2500l accumulators in winter.
    I have virtually no knowledge of the various types of solar panels, can anyone offer any general advise?
    Solar PV is not an option.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    There are generally two types of domestic solar thermal panels.
    Flat Plate and Evacuated Tube.
    The major difference between them (apart from price) is the method of insulation.
    Flat Plate ones rely on a small air gap between the glass and the collector element and some insulation behind the collector element to reduce heat loss.
    Evacuated Tubes rely on a vacuum to reduce heat loss.

    Flat Plate can give a larger area of collector element when compared to Evacuated Tube types, so the relationship between the amount of sunlight collected (irradiation) and the total roof space covered (m^2) is often similar.
    This can therefore give a similar performance overall because the total amount of irradiation amount to the same over time (this is known as insolation).

    Generally speaking Evacuated Tubes can reach a higher temperature (which is transferred to the water storage). But don't directly link temperature with energy. Temperature is the average speed of molecules and is measured on an arbitrary scale (Kelvin is the best one to use). Energy is the sum of the forces required to accelerate a mass a distance, it if more to do with storage in this case. So a raising the temperature of a large amount of water by a little bit can have the same energy as raising a little amount of water by a large temperature difference (the physics are simple of this one thankfully and water can store a lot of energy for little temperature rise).

    The rest is down to the looks (I generally prefer Flate Plate collectors), the easy of fitting, the space available, the price etc.

    You say you can't have PV, why is this? PV can often give superior performance (lower light levels) for any given roof area (though may not be large enough anyway).

    The main thing to remember with all 'renewable' energy sources is that they are all give little energy when measured against land area.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaPV can often give superior performance (lower light levels) ...
    true, but
    Posted By: SteamyTea... for any given roof area
    surely not?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014 edited
     
    Flat plate (FP) collectors will generally absorb more heat per square metre than evacuated tubes (ET). However, as soon as the collector fluid (generally a water/glycol mix) gets warmer than the ambient air both will start losing some of that absorbed heat. FPs will lose more so when the temperature difference is large (heating the DHW to hotter temperatures rather than just to UFH temperatures, say). The loses tend to be fixed for each type for a given temperature difference: ie., so many watts per panel or whatever. When the sunshine is very bright this loss doesn't matter too much but in weaker conditions it can rapidly become a very large proportion of the incoming energy.

    Therefore, FP tends to produce more energy per year than ET but ET does useful work for a larger proportion of the year.

    If you've got another source of heat and only a small area to use (eg., for aesthetic reasons) then FP will probably save you the most. If your other source(s) of heat are more expensive or more of a pain to operate then ET will avoid their use for more of the year.

    What Steamy says about PV is strictly true: there are conditions when a given small area of PV will beat the same area of FP or ET in that the PV will produce some output when the thermal panels can't produce any. However, to get the equivalent amount of energy over a year you'd generally need a significantly larger area of PV than either of the solar thermal types, though the costs might be similar (as PV is generally cheaper but lower power per square metre).

    In bright sunshine with low water temperatures solar thermal is cheaper per watt of power into the water than PV but not by a huge amount. In less bright conditions and with higher temperatures the PV is cheaper if you've got the space for it.

    (Edited to add: cross posted with Tom but I think I answer what he said, anyway.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed Daviesthere are conditions when a given small area of PV will beat the same area of FP or ET in that the PV will produce some output when the thermal panels can't produce any
    That's v interesting. So, in a system that's optimised for max Dec/Jan collection, v low flow temp (if 'wet') i.e. 22C being acceptable, then PV might not only be cheapest per deep-winter kWh, but not even require 3x the collector area? So in
    Posted By: Ed DaviesIn less bright conditions and with higher temperatures the PV is cheaper if you've got the space for it
    "if you've got the space for it" may not even apply?
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014 edited
     
    Succinct and detailed explanation Ed as always
    Posted By: Ed DaviesTherefore, FP tends to produce more energy per year than ET but ET does useful work for a larger proportion of the year.

    And this is why in Italy for you with your massive heating load, FPs win by a mile. Once the heating season starts your biomass burner is going to be producing vast amounts of heat compared to your DHW needs. The extra HW ETs produce in the heating season will be insignificant to you but during summer you have (for a given collector area) the ability to cater for any number of guests and in the just before and just after heating season, when in Italy you still get lots of sun, you can be confident you will rarely need to burn (or other back up) for DHW. Cost and durability/longevity wise FPs are better too IIRC. Hence, a no brainer as I mentioned on the previous thread. Next question is sizing......

    Where are you, what alt, are you above the fog?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: fostertom: “So, in a system that's optimised for max Dec/Jan collection, v low flow temp (if 'wet') i.e. 22C being acceptable, then PV might not only be cheapest per deep-winter kWh, but not even require 3x the collector area?â€Â

    No, to produce useful amounts of energy PV will need more area. It's just that sometimes thermal panels will produce nothing but an equal area of PV will produce something - just not a lot. Also low temperatures (e.g., 22 °C you mention) narrows the range of conditions when this applies.

    Still, if area isn't a problem, low-temperature solar thermal and PV seem to be about the same cost.

    Try my calculator: http://edavies.me.uk/2012/11/pv-dhw/
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed Daviessometimes thermal panels will produce nothing but an equal area of PV will produce something
    There must be a crossover, when with increasing insolation ST begins to produce 'something' while PV produces more, and at some point they equalise even for same collector area, before ST races away to produce much more for same collector area. Any 'feel' of where that equalisation point lies? You could postulate panels optimised in orientation and angle for mid winter collection, and acceptability of 22C flow temp if 'wet'. About what month, moving away from mid winter, might the equalised point come? Guess?
    • CommentAuthorpgrbff
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    SteamyTea. I probably wil have some PV at some stage but I'm led to believe, and I have checked, that whilst it used to be considered good value here this no longer the case - I can't tell you why.

    Gotanewlife. I'm at around 600m and quite often as I climb the 400m between where I cuurerently live and our home which is still inhabitable, it is like breaking through the clouds in a plane, blue skies!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    Tom, this is a bit of an unfair thread drift so I've started another thread to respond: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=12793
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014
     
    That's me - a drifter
    • CommentAuthorpgrbff
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesTom, this is a bit of an unfair thread drift so I've started another thread to respond:http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=12793" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=12793

    Now if I'm honest that is why I said PV is not an option. Not that I'm not interested.
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