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Offers and wants: External entrance doors to comply with airtightness

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorCassie
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2010
     
    I know I can get these from the main window and door manufacturers if I want to pay £1000, I'd rather not I need two!

    Can anyone point me to an external entrance door that will give me the airtightness I need who's price wont make me cry?

    When I have googled I get MOD sites and bullet proof doors! Its not that rough round here!

    Help!
  2.  
    All steel entrance doors over here come with magnetic seals for airtightness. I would have thought that should be pretty standard on any steel door. Of course, you might not want a steel door!

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2010
     
    I couldn’t find an insulated front door anywhere for a reasonable price nor a frame wide enough to take a door with insulation in it so I made my own. The frame was made from oak ex 75 x 150 rebated and I slotted it to take draft seals, I did two slots but found that the first seal worked so well that the second one has not yet been fitted. The door was made from an oak frame ex 100 x 50 with a door blank inside for strength and security, a sheet of oak veneered board on the inside face, PUR insulation on the outside then left over engineered oak flooring on the outside. It looks great but when slammed there is a danger of it demolishing the house. cost of door and frame 250

    see tonyshouse.info for pictures
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2010
     
    Cassie, are you replacing just the door or is it door and frames?
    • CommentAuthorCassie
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2010
     
    Paul, can you clad a steel door? It could become anything you wanted if you could. One of the doors is from house into garage, so steel wouldn't be bad if i could clad the house side of the door.

    Tony, we intended to make our own but were told that it could never ever be airtight enough, especially at the threshold. Thats what started me looking

    Owlman, its new build so making from scratch, and the openings are 920 and 1000mm so very few off the shelf around.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2010
     
    Mine has a perfect draught seal along the bottom -- it is all a mater of design -- mine is robust too unlike many off the shelf ones.
  7.  
    I am just looking into GRP composite doors for a job. They have a 50mm PUR core and a stated u-value of 0.37W/m2K. Draught seals look good too. I will try and find the link.
    • CommentAuthorsquowse
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2010 edited
     
    i don't accept that large companies with factories can achieve draughtproofing that lesser mortals can't.
    i think the best seal for the threshold is a drop down seal like this - http://www.norsound.co.uk/Door-Bottom-Seals/NOR-810.html
    the seal lifts up out the way when the door is opened to reduce opening force and more importantly protect it against damage.
    a lot of new doors like upvc ones will have an upstand that the door seals against. personally as a foot dragger i hate these upstands.
    not sure where you are but i have some solid oak doors (reclaimed) that are very large and may work for you. if you are interested email me with your sizes. (i'm in manchester)
    • CommentAuthorAdrianHunt
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2010
     
    I was very pleased with the door I fitted from www.securidor.ltd.uk. Made to measure, good draught proofing, secure locking, very durable, and I thought good value for about £500. I got mine through Jewsons.
  10.  
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeI am just looking into GRP composite doors for a job. They have a 50mm PUR core and a stated u-value of 0.37W/m2K. Draught seals look good too. I will try and find the link.


    MIke - I'd be very interested in the link the thermal performance is pretty impressive.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010 edited
     
    Posted by: Cassie " its new build so making from scratch, and the openings are 920 and 1000mm so very few off the shelf around."

    It also depends on the look you want to achieve. Paint finish, Contemporary wood etc. Are the doors sheltered from the elements or fully exposed. I've made and fitted many doors and achieving high grade insulation and draughtproofing, on a budget, and coupled with good looks is difficult. Tony's efforts are commendable, but he's experirienced, are you up to DIY and making them yourself? He is right "its all a matter of design." cill detail especially. The retractable door seals that squowse mentioned are technically great but at a price, as are full length heavy, duty piano type hinges. In the end why skimp on two of the most used bits of structure in the property. It sounds like you're going to require a bespoke job, and that wont come cheap.

    Mike
  12.  
    Hi Mark, This isn't the specific product I am looking at [they don't seem to have an online link] but they all seem to be claiming the same ballpark u-value. It is an unglazed door though. See second paragraph after the table http://www.justdoorsuk.com/composite-doors.htm
    • CommentAuthorCassie
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
     
    I agree I might have to bite the bullet and pay for the bespoke doors, but it does not hurt to have a good hunt around and think it through.

    This is the 4th house we have " dealt" with, two renovations, one full conversion and now a self build (and easily the most challenging of the four).

    I would hate to shell out £1000 a door, to find out afterwards it could be done for a fraction of that amount.

    We are certainly not wealthy enough to go for the line of least resistence every time, and we are up for a challenge and a bit of hard work.
  14.  
    I have found a link now - the door and frame I am looking at is supplied by the Window Store for around £500.

    http://www.windowstoreplastics.co.uk/PDF/Sierra_reflections.pdf
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
     
    I cant see how they can be airtight with a letter plate in them???
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010 edited
     
    Yes but that's not compulsory its optional. Same problem with any door:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
     
    :clap: yea so are we saying no more letter plates?
    • CommentAuthorCassie
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2010
     
    Better not get the cat flap then !
  19.  
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeHi Mark, This isn't the specific product I am looking at [they don't seem to have an online link] but they all seem to be claiming the same ballpark u-value. It is an unglazed door though. See second paragraph after the tablehttp://www.justdoorsuk.com/composite-doors.htm" >http://www.justdoorsuk.com/composite-doors.htm


    Thanks for the link, although something is definitely fishy here. I agree that they quote a U=0.37W/m2.K ont he web page, but if you download their brochure (http://www.justdoorsuk.com/brochures/just-doors-uk-composite-door-brochure.pdf) and look at page 18 it states:

    "Our solid unglazed door set achieves a `U` Value of 1.03 while our half glazed door achieves a `U` Value of 1.46..."

    Not quite consistent here.

    Given that the very best PassivHaus doors, with thermally broken thresholds don't get much below about 0.8W/m2.K and cost thousands, I think I'm more inclined to believe the numbers in the brochure than on the website.
  20.  
    Thanks Mark, I didn't look at the brochure, it was just a link I found making the same claims as the range I am thinking of using.

    I have seen the window store product and it is basically a PUR sandwich. After what you say though I will take a more critical look.

    However I just ran a quick calc and 56mm PUR sandwiched between 3mm GRP either side equates to a u-value of around 0.37W/m2K.

    I need to take a closer look at the sample though. I will be ordering this soon so will report back.
  21.  
    Posted By: MarkBennettThanks for the link, although something is definitely fishy here. I agree that they quote a U=0.37W/m2.K ont he web page, but if you download their brochure (http://www.justdoorsuk.com/brochures/just-doors-uk-composite-door-brochure.pdf) and look at page 18 it states:"Our solid unglazed door set achieves a `U` Value of 1.03 while our half glazed door achieves a `U` Value of 1.46..."
    Not quite consistent here. Given that the very best PassivHaus doors, with thermally broken thresholds don't get much below about 0.8W/m2.K and cost thousands, I think I'm more inclined to believe the numbers in the brochure than on the website.

    There are at least 3 different U values they can quote: centre panel; whole door; & installed.

    The 0.37 U value is likely to be a centre panel value for 2 GRP faces filled with PUR foam. In reality the door will have an internal timber frame & other thermal bridges, so the whole door U value will be significantly higher. The 1.03 & 1.46 U values are likely to be whole door values, excluding the door frame, threshold, etc. For a Passivhaus it is the installed U value which counts.

    David
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2010
     
    Looking at the plans on your other thread, it appears,- I think, that the front entrance door is sheltered in a recess, which is good. Therefore if you opt for a wood door, you could go for a high insulation grade, off the peg, engineered door, in the nearest size. for example, a 33" or 34"door for the 920mm opening, and a 36" door for the 1000mm opening. Watch the heights though, not all sizes are available in all heights. Give these doors to a local joinery company and get them to make up frames to the appropriate opening sizes. Incorporating good technical joinery seals into the frame.
    Good quality doors such as these come with a price tag and expect to pay up to £500, just for the door. The downside is their construction. Almost invariably nowadays, it's a veneered surface on a solid engineered core. I dont have a problem with engineered products as a whole but for exterior doors,- mmmm, long term I worry. I have visions of veneers de-laminating. Which is why I mentioned the sheltered aspect of the door.
    Doing the job this way means you don't have to trim the door to the frame thereby avoiding ruining the factory lipping on the edges. You also get good seals incorporated into the frame.
    For the cill, if you want a contiuous floor finish (inside/outside), with minimal foot obstruction, a way to go might be to incorporate a low level door seal, the type that is often used for disabled access. They comprise an aluminium carrier about 2" wide with a heavy duty, replacable, rubber insert. The door then has a corresponding striker blade inserted into the underside of the door, which if correctly installed strikes the rubber and provides a nice seal. Whenever I've used these I've found them a nice compromise between style and function. If you had tiled surfaces you could even incorporate the aluminium carrier into the tiled floor surface further reducing any obstruction. Then its just the locks, thats another story??
    With your previous project experience you will be aware that with all precise fitting work of this nature the devil is in the detail. Chose your tradesmen carefully.

    Mike
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2010
     
    There is quite a lot of useful info on (custom-sized) insulated doors here: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2140&page=2#Item_8
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2010
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeI have found a link now - the door and frame I am looking at is supplied by the Window Store for around £500.


    I don't see any U-values quoted in the PDF. Did I miss something?
    • CommentAuthorPowerPrize
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2010
     
    Hi all

    I hope you would agree that loss of house energy through the threshold and around the door leaf, etc. can be easily stopped or significantly reduced using affordable draught proofing products on the market.

    However, you will still face the problem that U-values for doors are misleading as presently quoted by door manufacturers. This is because the effect of the letter plate, which in real life often stays open, is not taken into consideration.

    Most of house energy, which is lost through the door in cold seasons, is lost through the letterplate when it is wedged open (often for hours) by a newspaper or mail items. An open letterplate is a sizeable hole in the exterior of your property and most of the heat you put into the room disappears out through the hole. This undermines even the most expensive door if it has a letterplate (letter box) that you need since it lets you mail in.

    Fortunately, this technical problem has been solved recently. Get a patented IdealGuardâ„¢ secure letter box product and fit it indoors to the external Victorian type letterplate. I suggest you visit www.secureletterbox.com.

    With current energy prices IdealGuard™ can pay for itself in around two years and your savings on energy bills will escalate year after year, particularly, with rising energy prices. If you are a landlord, incredibly, you can get the draught proofing IdealGuard™ products for FREE by claiming energy saving tax allowance (up to £1,500 on each property you own):
    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/BuyingAndSellingYourHome/LettingYourHome/DG_175186

    With this product now you can use a low cost door, which still will provide genuine decent U-values, because the letter box will not produce any letter box draughts.

    Also, IdealGuardâ„¢ comes with a number of further integrated significant benefits.


    I hope this helps.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2010
     
    That reads very much like an ad: disclosing any affiliation you might have with the manufacturers would be good.

    Rgds

    Damon
  27.  
    There's no reason to have a letterplate. A postbox on the outside wall doesn't compromise the door's strength or the building's security & completely avoids problems with draughts & energy loss. With later & later deliveries, the declining use of post & increasing use of the internet, post these days is very rarely urgent. We had a postbox at the end of the drive when we lived in France &, once we'd got over the initial adjustment, we didn't miss having our post put through the front door. In fact, it's one less thing to think about, when you're giving people access to the house, for example, when having building work done.

    David

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