Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2023
     
    I am doing a refurb on a top floor flat. So i have ripped out all the old Pb and small lath walls to reveal a shell.

    The building control guy is not sure on the new regs and said he will get back to me on what i need to put back.

    He is saying i can leave the 50mm rigid foil insulation in between the roof joists and under board with 50mm. So 100mm rigid insulation on the roof.

    The flat dorma can have the same, so 100mm.

    The dorma sides he wasnt sure, It is 75mm deep here.

    On the small eave walls he wants 150mm rigid which doesnt seem right.

    Uvalue to achieve is 0.16 on any roof part and 0.3 on walls (i think).

    Anyone know about this topic ?
  1.  
    Yes, probably. What exactly do you want to know?

    Part L kicks in when you 'add or replace a layer'.

    100 on the sloping soffits will not achieve 0.16.

    Got any pics? Are the 'small eaves walls' for example stud or brick, where the ext wall comes above FF ceil level?
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2023
     
    I want to know what insulation i need to add to meet the regs.

    The flat height is very low, so me ripping out the current plaster board to now be told i need to fit a deeper level of insulation seems a bit unfair. All i am doing is improving what was there.

    So BC says 100mm will be ok, and i thought this didnt make sense to me, but if he is ok'ing it then fair enough.

    Insulating the eave walls is another matter. He wants 150mm here. They are studs and behind will be an unused space running the whole way around the flat.

    This photo shows the flat roof area, which is a dorma extension done in the 80's. You can see the slopes and the stud eave walls as well.
      flat 7.jpg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    I like to go better than the mini standards in the regs, I would underline the foiled area with 50mm more, fully fill the bit under the flat roof turning it into a warm roof.

    Eaves, across g/f ceiling with 400mm mineral quilt joined to pir but leave gap for ventilation

    Dormer cheeks, fully fill and overclad with additional 50 or 80mm pir

    Vapour barrier everywhere, plasterboard and plaster
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    I have lined the eaves floor area with the old insulation in the stud walls. Plus this will be boarded out for storage and running of heat pipes and water

    These new regs are much stricter but I am learning if on a referb you can you be expected to upgrade what is practical. The head height won’t allow 100mm board under the rafters. 50mm is ok

    Can I fill the dorma fully up? I thought we had to allow ventilation?

    Having said that, the felt is being redone so I can stick 100mm on the top and add extra in the void to be a warm roof.

    bC have said on those eave walls I need 150mm insulation and I think he means rigid, but this is where he is going to check as he isn’t sure.

    So this is by biggest query. I wanted to do 50mm between studs and 25mm overboard on these walls.
  2.  
    OK, so you have a height restriction under the sloping soffits, so the BCO has done the reasonable thing and has compromised.

    Unless he is trying to 'over-do' the stud wall to compensate for the sub-optimal insulation on the slopes then 75 or 100 PIR will do.

    If he's talking 150 I think he means mineral wool.

    The 'raw calc' for PIR is 0.75(m)/0.022 (lambda value) = 3.409 (R value). 1/R = U, so 1/3.409 = 0.293W/m2K. This is not the full story, though, as your 50mm between studs has 50mm of wood every 400 or so mm, so actually the U value is probably a tad worse than 0.3. As per Tony, I'd always encourage exceeding the requirements of the regs, but if you want to go for the 'minimum minimum' he'll probably accept 75mm.

    The calc is easy for mineral wool as the lambda of bog-standard stuff is 0.044, half as good as PIR, so his 150 is (if you forget the studs) correct. If I'm doing 'fat' quilt insulation in stud walls or sloping soffits' I use 'Larsen Trusses' (spaced rafters or cheapskates' I-beams).

    Good luck with it. I hope it goes well.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    Ok thanks. The stud wall makes sense.

    Do you think it is worth insulating the slopes behind the stud wall as well? So 50 between and 50 underneath?

    The eaves will have an access hatch each side, so if I can lower the air flow coming into the eaves this is likely to help the overall space. The hatches are fake ones which seal and have insulation.
  3.  
    Building regs England Table 4.3 page 26 and Appendix C page 81 for retrofit:

    "Pitched roof constructions (room-in-the-roof
    arrangement
    Target U value 0.16"

    "ceiling to flat
    roof area.
    Target U value 0.16"

    "Dormer window constructions
    Renewal of cladding to side
    walls
    Target U value 0.30"
    (They suggest putting the insulation on the outside of the timbers, could you do that while you do the flat roof?)

    So for the pitched and flat roof that would be about 50mm PIR insulation between the rafters and another 100mm over/under for U=0.16

    For the dormer side walls and eaves walls that's about 50mm between the studs and another 30-50mm outside/inside for U=0.30 (so 80ish mm total like Nick said)

    Might be cheaper overall to put all the insulation over/under the timbers, rather than putting some between, as saves faff of cutting to fit, and no thermal bridges so insulation can be slightly thinner.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    Space is super tight

    Dorma cheeks I can get 75 plus 25. Eaves I can get 50-75 between and 25 over

    Roof only can get extra 50 under.

    I think there is flexibility in this legislation. Some house just cannot get x amount on the walls if doing it from inside. So people will simply not bother. That’s how I see it.
  4.  
    That's right, there's an exemption from the U value regs if you can persuade the BCO they are

    "not technically or functionally feasible"

    Examples are given: it's not required to lose more than 5% of the floor space, or to limit the head room, or spend money that wouldn't payback within 15 years. But it would probably come down to what the BCO agrees to.

    You could mock up a few square feet of insulation to the regs, to demonstrate that causes a problem, or not?

    On our project I worried about this, but it turned out not to be noticeable once the walls were painted. If anything, it made the room "narrower" rather than "lower", but not a problem.

    Better insulation means better EPC score so could be helpful.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    Re dormer flat roof, with the noggins there never was any ventilation so filling it full changes it to a warm roof, odd that it is completely flat. Vapour barrier crucial
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    Posted By: tonyRe dormer flat roof, with the noggins there never was any ventilation so filling it full changes it to a warm roof, odd that it is completely flat. Vapour barrier crucial

    Tony, are you always preferring a vapour barrier over a vapour control layer?
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2023
     
    Reg dorma roof I think bc will have me drill vent holes in the facia to get ventilation into it and continue up to the ridge. Need to discuss this issue with him
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2023
     
    Multi foil is no better than PIR. You need air gaps etc. So to get down to 0.16 I need 75mm between the rafters (which i can do no problem), but 75mm under means I loose another 25mm in head height. It was tight with just the plasterboard under the rafters, so now i have removed all the PB, adding back 50mm insulation was doable, but i think 75mm will be too much.

    I'm really annoyed by this as I am up dating a terrible flat and to reduce the roof height by so much compromises the space.
  5.  
    Well it seems the get out is there if the BCO agrees, as has been mentioned above.
    If you want to make it as good as you possibly can, perhaps because you know that it’s the right thing to do, or because it may not be done again for 50 years, or any other reason, have you considered Aerogel for the places with the tightest headroom? With the cheaper PIR in other places where there is a bit more space.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2023
     
    Don’t know much about aerogel. I will need to read about it
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2023
     
    Spoke to BC today and got the all clear to use 75mm between the rafter and 50mm underneath, giving 0.2 U value.

    The dorma will be 150mm so a uvalue of 0.5.

    I am making it a warm deck as redoing the roof in fibreglass. Do i put the vapour barrier at the plasterboard level ? Or do i lay it over the first deck just below the 100mm insulation ? I am fitting 50mm between the rafters, tight up to the top. Still have about 70mm void space left.

    the roof is not flat and has a good pitch on it.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2023
     
    Posted By: marsadaySpoke to BC today and got the all clear to use 75mm between the rafter and 50mm underneath, giving 0.2 U value.

    The dorma will be 150mm so a uvalue of 0.5.
    I don't understand that. 75+50 = 125 gives 0.2 U value, but 150 gives significantly WORSE U value for thicker insulation? What do I not understand?
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2023
     
    Sorry 0.15
  6.  
    Posted By: marsadayStill have about 70mm void space left.
    .


    This strikes me as a wasted opportunity. If you are having 100PIR above to make a warm roof (if I understand correctly?) then I would go 100 in between as well (tight up to the top) leaving a smaller 20mm void at the room ceiling side. The increased material cost would be minimal. That should get you to about 0.13 U Value
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeFeb 4th 2023
     
    Yes I have space in the flat section to add more but all the companies say you must not do this. 100 above and 50 below seems to be their limit.

    So can I fill with say 100 above and 100 between, leaving 20mm space?

    Would the vapour barrier go just below the joist then? Or would it go over the first osb deck (under the 100mm insulation above). bC have you doing some things which just don’t seem right
  7.  
    Vapour barrier needs to go a long way inboard of the dewpoint - put it below the rafters.

    Principle of a warm roof is that the insulation goes (mostly) above the deck, so that the deck and rafters are always warm and inboard of the dewpoint. Adding insulation below the deck, makes it colder. There was a rule of thumb that the insulation value above the deck should be at least 2x the insulation below, other people say 3x, it's all a bit rough and ready. Especially for flat roofs which get heated when the sun shines.

    If you are thinking to add on more insulation to further increase your 150mm, then maybe add it to the layer above the deck, rather than the layer below, also saves on cutting and thermal bridges? But maybe diminishing returns when other areas have U=0.3.
  8.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThere was a rule of thumb that the insulation value above the deck should be at least 2x the insulation below,


    I haven't heard of this but then I haven't done any research on warm flat roofs - I do need to though with 2 that need sorting on this house.
    I wonder what the rationale is for that? when it's okay for a warm pitched roof e.g. 100mm between 100mm over.
  9.  
    Pitched roofs have breather membrane and/or ventilation gaps under the slates/tiles to let moisture escape, so condensation isn't a problem, even if the timbers are cold.

    Cold flat roofs have unbreathable felt or EDPM so they are supposed to have cross ventilation underneath the deck to let moisture escape. Warm flat roofs don't need the ventilation, if the timber is actually warm enough.

    TBF there are plenty of cold flat roofs that last for years without ventilation and others that go rotten so it does seem fairly random. Warm flat roofs are mandatory in Scottish building standards.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeFeb 4th 2023
     
    I think it must be due to how much moisture is getting into the roof. A kitchen produces much more moisture than a bedroom I imagine. Plus how many holes or gaps you have in the VL. I think spots cause a big problem regarding this.
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press