Green Building Forum - Undecided in North Hampshire Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:02:20 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189334#Comment_189334 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189334#Comment_189334 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:41:38 +0000 creamcheese
“Plan A – refurb and make the best of what we have, with internal & external insulation, minimise thermal bridging and make the house look prettier with replacement tiles.

"Plan B" - the current planning consent -- gut and renovate the existing ground-floor structure, building a completely new first floor at full width, raise the ridge height with new roof, adding single-story garden room extension, and two storey 'sunset' projection over large porch. 300 sqm refurb!

“Plan C” - rebuild on current footprint with existing foundations

“Plan D” - relocate to a better position, and rebuild with a squarer footprint. This plan almost certainly overrides plan C. Planners have indicated that this should be acceptable.

With so many "unknown unknowns", it's really hard to decide what's best. We've had estate agents advice as to potential value, and it's a close call on whether or not we will lose money if we had to sell it upon completion. Advice also seems to be that the outlay for eco initiatives don't transfer to increased value. Buyers are still very shallow, and it's all about glossy kitchens and smart taps.

Hope to get some advice on here along the way.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189337#Comment_189337 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189337#Comment_189337 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:52:01 +0000 SteamyTea
As you say, the whole 'eco' thing is a nonsense when it comes to selling.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189338#Comment_189338 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189338#Comment_189338 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:07:36 +0000 SteveZ Are we going to stay here for the next ten years or should we sell now and find a plot for a new build? Rebuild or new build will be draining on money and energy
Apart from being long and thin, what is wrong with the house as is? Would a new roof and an extension at the back make it more usable?
Can we build in the plot without demolishing the existing house first?
Is there reasonable access if we build in the plot with the existing house in situ?

At first sight, option D looks promising, even if it requires a partial demolition first. You will have to demolish the existing house after constructing the new one as a condition of the PP, I would guess. Living on the site during the work has benefits and drawbacks, but having somewhere comfortable to live during the work is a big plus.
Whatever you decide to do, it will involve a lot of expense and upheaval, so it is definitely worth taking some time to weigh up your options.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189339#Comment_189339 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189339#Comment_189339 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:16:04 +0000 Jonti
you don't say how many people are living in your house. I would say it is pretty big and that a refurb to a high standard.

Jonti]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189340#Comment_189340 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189340#Comment_189340 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:21:28 +0000 creamcheese
Don't know how long we will stay - if we love the end result - will stay maybe 7-15 yrs.

What's wrong with house - ugly, poor layout, hard to heat, flatroof dormers, cold floors and walls, odd hot water plumbing arrangements, all these can be improved with a refurb, but the shape and position on the plot cannot.

The work to improve the house could be quite extensive, hence the rebuild option raising its head unexpectedly. It would need so much gutting out, that we'd probably need to move out. If the house was really dilapidated, the decision would be easier I think.

The ability to live in the house (or certainly one end of it with all services intact) while the new one is built is very attractive, along with the VAT savings.

Access is tight, but that's true if we refurb or rebuild.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189341#Comment_189341 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189341#Comment_189341 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 11:24:21 +0000 creamcheese Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189346#Comment_189346 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189346#Comment_189346 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:10:19 +0000 SteveZ Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189347#Comment_189347 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189347#Comment_189347 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:22:47 +0000 fostertom
A newbuild could be optimally compact, loss-wise, and much more useful and spacious-feeling accomodation within considerably smaller floor area.

This could be an opportunity for a really solar/site-optimised newbuild, with none of the usual Planner problems. Which way is south, and how much low-horizon sky can be seen from any part of the site, where you might site it?

Presumably in a high-house-price area (?) so value/return on investment has a fighting chance of matching up acceptably. How long will you live there? If prepared to wait say 10yrs, take a view on whether eco-virtue may have acquired a value by then. If seeing it as somewhere to end your days, then value/return may not be so important as comfort, ease of use and low running costs.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189350#Comment_189350 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189350#Comment_189350 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:51:00 +0000 creamcheese
It's probably evolved in this linear fashion because the best views are to the east and west, with fab sunrise and sunset views, as shown below.....]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189353#Comment_189353 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189353#Comment_189353 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:59:00 +0000 fostertom http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11412&page=1#Item_20]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189356#Comment_189356 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189356#Comment_189356 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:17:53 +0000 Ed Davies Posted By: creamcheeseThe long sides face approximately east and west with no openings on the south side at allKnock it down, then, he says very opinionatedly. Having a long side facing south might just have saved it. Refurb is great if the result will be reasonable but if it's all a compromise anyway it's probably not worth it personally or ecologically.

It would be horrible to put in a huge amount of effort and not love the result.

If you have to use high-embodied energy materials for space and practical reasons you might find the refurb is not much cheaper ecologically (or financially) than a new build and the result will be more expensive to run meaning an overall loss in the long run.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189357#Comment_189357 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189357#Comment_189357 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:22:01 +0000 creamcheese Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189363#Comment_189363 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189363#Comment_189363 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:46:07 +0000 Jonti
Jonti]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189366#Comment_189366 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189366#Comment_189366 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:56:30 +0000 creamcheese
As Stevez said, what we have here is an expensive building plot...]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189381#Comment_189381 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189381#Comment_189381 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:19:02 +0000 Chris P Bacon Posted By: creamcheese
As Stevez said, what we have here is an expensive building plot...
That's it!

I have never re-furbed but every commentary I have seen has said the the costs of new build or re-furb to Passive house/near passive house standard are very similar but with a re-furb you are likely to have to accept more compromises which will probably mean a less energy efficient house.

Cheapest option would probably be to sell up and buy a plot to build on, but of course that may cause a large delay to your build.

Failing that I would go with Plan D.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189394#Comment_189394 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189394#Comment_189394 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:13:04 +0000 creamcheese
it would yes, but we moved here a year ago intending to do "something" with it, as we like the location, plot and views....

whatever we do, it will be stress, hassle and money...deep joy !]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189403#Comment_189403 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189403#Comment_189403 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:18:03 +0000 Jonti
This got me wondering,

is this true. I can see this being the case if you use PH methods but I am not sure it would be correct if you are just aiming for PH results/performance but reach them through different methods. In the end PH is mainly about getting a building that requires little or no heating system isn't it?

Jonti]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189405#Comment_189405 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189405#Comment_189405 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:32:34 +0000 slidersx200
There will be considerations like how the current house design/layout fits your needs and the health/comfort factor offered by a low energy home which will be difficult to place a value on, but the projected end value of your new build/renovation and payback period for any energy saving measures will be calculable to a certain extent.

From the dimensions you gave above, your current home must be in the region of 230sqm (including garage), so to replace this with a house of a similar size could well be in the region of £200k+ for a decent spec build. That's a lot of money to recoup through energy bills and not likely to be an amount anyone could expect to see back in their lifetime, let alone 7-15 years. I'm sure a well designed and built low energy home on the same plot would be worth more than the current house, but probably not £200k more so again the numbers may not be favourable.

Having said all that, to put money into a renovation will inevitably result in many compromises being made that mean you don't end up with the home of your dreams, not to mention that nagging feeling which may be felt every time you feel a draught or fill the oil tank... which may feel worse!

You could always build a smaller house and it sounds like your family could fit in less than 230sqm, keeping build costs down but the end result may be worth less than the current house simply due to size. An architectural practice here in Northern Ireland offers a 1530sqft, 4 bedroom home that attains 93/100 for its energy rating at a turnkey cost of just under £70k and the firm I used have four different designs from 870-1530sqft ranging from £47k-90k, so there may well be a way to get the best of both worlds if the design is simple.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189406#Comment_189406 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189406#Comment_189406 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:35:22 +0000 fostertom Posted By: creamcheesethe view we really don't want is south - bungalow now, but probably 2 storey "god-knows-what" in the future. I think if we rebuild, we need to keep the current orientation, but shorter and fatter footprint, giving some south facing openings.Yes it's much too simplistic to think of the building 'facing', as if it's a square box with all the view from the 'front'. It can have proper solar orientation (i.e. with lowest poss SW/S/SE horizon) but with a little ingenuity view can be designed to whichever 'frame(s)' you like - an architect should achieve that. Solar receiver needn't necessarily or largely be S view-windows - can be a seasonal sunspace backed by solidish wall, or collectors on roof (or wall face) - many solutions.

Posted By: Jontiif you use PH methods but I am not sure it would be correct if you are just aiming for PH results/performance but reach them through different methods
May be a misaprehension here. PH isn't a method, just a way of assessing result. 'Different methods' - what could that be? Throwing lots of 'renewable' energy at a so-so insulated/airtighted building? Not good.
Posted By: JontiPH is mainly about getting a building that requires little or no heating system isn't it?
'Little' - yes, 'no'- no. PHs still require a backup heating system. To really do without that, you need to integrate solar space heating fully into an otherwise near-PH building - can discuss that if interested - plenty about it on here. Winter hot tap water will even then require fuel of some sort.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189409#Comment_189409 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189409#Comment_189409 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 18:54:03 +0000 Ed Davies Posted By: Chris P BaconCheapest option would probably be to sell up and buy a plot to build on, but of course that may cause a large delay to your build.In assessing that you have to consider the cost of living somewhere in the mean time. With planning or other delays that can mount up. Somewhere habitable on or very close to the site is worth quite a bit psychologically and financially.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189411#Comment_189411 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189411#Comment_189411 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 19:41:46 +0000 Jonti
Thanks for the reply and as you explain it it is more or less what I thought it was. PH is basically a set of end results the building should reach. Am I correct in presuming that the end result required is basically the thermal qualities of the building?

I suppose the need for a backup heat source will depend on the weather, building location, number of people using the building and its purpose. I know that some houses are built with no heating are these then better than PH standard or are they used by the thick woolly pully brigade?

Jonti]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189415#Comment_189415 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189415#Comment_189415 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 19:57:08 +0000 SteamyTea Also might be a case of corner cutting. If treated as a a new build project it may not be so bad.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189422#Comment_189422 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189422#Comment_189422 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:20:19 +0000 creamcheese
I think I know what you mean about low horizon sky - east and west are unobstructed, so we get winter sun on the east and west (not quite equally, east side mostly)]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189425#Comment_189425 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189425#Comment_189425 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:50:37 +0000 fostertom Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189426#Comment_189426 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189426#Comment_189426 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:58:01 +0000 creamcheese Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189427#Comment_189427 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189427#Comment_189427 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:58:07 +0000 fostertom Posted By: JontiAm I correct in presuming that the end result required is basically the thermal qualities of the building?Yes - but with big emphasis on the conditions for subjective thermal comfort, as much as technical heat loss. If people feel comfortable they'll run the heating a bit cooler, won't open windows in winter, won't perceive 'draughts' (actually cold radiation) from windows ... etc. Air velocities, humidity too.

Posted By: Jontithe need for a backup heat source
This is goingto increase if anything, as lighting, electronics and soon cooking contribute less and less to the residual heat demand. As the 'supplementary' demand is going up, the economic case improves, for replacing it with serious solar space-heating. You can't get rid of all 'fuelled' heating simply by further improving insulation/airtightness (PH really is the ultimate optimum for that) - has to be by deliberate solar. In the old days that's all there was - we've just lost the knack since coal.]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189428#Comment_189428 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189428#Comment_189428 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:59:28 +0000 Ed Davies
It's both a little bit more specific and a bit wider than that but, basically, yes:

http://www.passivhaus.org.uk/standard.jsp?id=18]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189431#Comment_189431 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189431#Comment_189431 Mon, 18 Nov 2013 21:59:05 +0000 fostertom Posted By: creamcheesenot full sun from the south, as there are no windows on that side - it's about 2m from the adjacent bungalow to the south Yes but what's the southern skyline height (and the view) as seen from the northern biundary, where i'd suggest putting a new house?]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189441#Comment_189441 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189441#Comment_189441 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 08:27:10 +0000 creamcheese
sorry for rubbish image - this is the current approved plan for the refurb with raised roof and extn etc, with proposed 2.5 bay garage to north, with studio over]]> Undecided in North Hampshire http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189444#Comment_189444 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11422&Focus=189444#Comment_189444 Tue, 19 Nov 2013 08:49:16 +0000 fostertom Posted By: creamcheeseplanners would want to see some overlapping with the current houseWhatttt? that is one of their rules of thumb? I'd hope a convincing architectural design/layout would overcome that arbitrary nonsense. It wd have the effect of plonking your newbuild right in the middle of the plot, so you'd have 2 smaller gardens rather than one spacious one.]]>