Green Building Forum - Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum...

Hello! I need help and found this interesting forum...

BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 18:43:42 +0100

Hi!

I wish I was joining with a more upbeat tone, but sadly I'm not.

I've found this forum and am really in dire need of some advice, on where next to turn, regarding our hallway in our 1920s semi.

I'm a female, project managing on my own really, as my partner is not wanting to be involved.

There is a lot of pressure on me now, as I've got us into a right state since April, when we got the lime plaster in our hallway and landing removed by a certified asbestos company, because I had it tested for asbestos and the walls of the original hallway and landing where found to have a chrysotile artex coating.

I have a 6yr old and I'd watched 'hidden killers' on the BBC iPlayer and just freaked out because we had cracks behind the hall radiator and near the window in the landing and around skirting boards and a big vertical one down the corner of the internal wall behind the stairs and the external wall.

We hoped to just be able to get it bonded and skimmed over, but I just didn't want to risk it not working and hammer a picture up one day and release the Asbestos fibres!

I know... Sounds over the top, but I couldn't find research to show that I shouldn't be worried.

So all the plaster has come off. And it's been 4Â½ months now, without any plaster going back on because we can't get a lime plasterer to stay long enough to reinstate it, (we've be let down by a really good one, who cancelled 2 days before the start date, after we waited 6 weeks for him, and then another, who was recommended to us from the local lime supplier, but he walked off the job after 3 days! That was 3 weeks ago.

Now I'm worried about impending Winter with gaps all around our suspended floors downstairs, as all skirtings have gone, and, I read on here that building regs could potentially affect it! Last Winter was cold enough, and we were spending Â£140 a month on gas and electric for what is a 3 bed semi.

No builder or plasterer we've had round has mentioned this and we were originally going through one before we got the plaster removed, but I cancelled him, as he wanted to dot and dab plasterboard to the external solid brick wall!

I don't know whether to continue my tale here, or on another subject thread?

Thanks in advance for any interest and help.

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Ed Davies — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 19:47:47 +0100

Might be worth mentioning roughly where you are, which county you're in or big city you're near as somebody might be able to suggest somebody local.

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Nick Parsons — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:13:24 +0100

Welcome, and sorry to hear you are having problems with the A-thing.

+1 to Ed's post. I know lime plasterers in Sheffield and Derbyshire and (at 2nd hand) in Mid-Wales.

Please let us know where you are (-ish if you do not want to be specific).

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Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 20:33:43 +0100

Hi BiscuitsAndTea
Commiserations regarding your problems with the tradespeople. We get the same problems over here - wait for months and then they don't turn up.

Are you wedded to lime plaster? The pragmatic approach might be to use gypsum plaster because it might be easier to get a plasterer

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Nick Parsons — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:25:56 +0100

These are external walls? If you are 'adding or replacing a layer' ('Renovating', as defined by the Building Act) to more than 50% of the external wall area in the room (or hall) you are standing in you come within the remit of the Bldg Regs.

A parge coat (sealing layer) of lime - 6-10mm thick- will stop unwanted air ingress through the wall itself. 80-100mm of cork or wood-fibre board on top (with lime plaster over) will get you close enough to the B.R. target to satisfy most Bldg Control Officers.

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:39:35 +0100

I'm in the realm of the East Riding near the Humber.

The first lime plasterer I had, I got from a really great lime plastering group I've followed since April, when I first started researching whether dot and dab plasterboard on external solid brick walls, really was a 'no no' due to Interstitial condensation risk.

We built a fantastic relationship with a 40min phone call and he was nothing but helpful online... until 2 days before he was due to arrive from Cornwall, when his messages got distant and I asked if we were all good to start, but he said he had to delay.

I gave him a further month but got sporadic replies. Some not making much sense, and eventually he said â€œI donâ€™t do deadlines!â€...

Turned out, he had a personal crisis (apparently) with his wife. That was 31st May. Heâ€™s still on that group and posted another job on a cob house he was doing, the following week, when he was supposed to be at our house! Heâ€™s apologised for letting me down but said his family and health had to come first.

Then; the next guy I hired, (who Iâ€™d originally contacted at the same time as the first) for a quote, was closer to home and wasn't so wordy, but he was highly recommended! He was hard to pin down, but I just wanted to get our home back, as it's been so stressful in our household! I asked him if I needed to get the landing ceiling laths taken down (as the plaster ceiling was removed too) and he said he'd take the central overlapping laths off properly, but to leave it to him and not to worry.

I cancelled a labourer who was to remove the laths. The plasterer arrived 2 weeks late but got on and I again didn't want to say too much, just kept him in tea and biscuits with his 2 teammates.

2 days in - on the evening, I looked properly at the landing and saw bits of plasterboarding to the stud lath internal areas undulated and so I mentioned that I was a bit worried the next day and could it be remedied, as it was something Iâ€™d be looking at for years to come and wasnâ€™t cheap?

They started using a long spirit level everywhere and it appeared the landing ceiling was 1Â½-2â€ higher at the edges of the walls vs the centre, due to 12.5mm plasterboard being directly screwed to the existing laths. No cross battening done, which Iâ€™d mentioned Iâ€™d been advised would be best. A plasterer friend had also warned that plasterboard would follow an uneven substrate, so be careful with the ceiling. He wasn't available for the job though as works on new builds.
Anyway, so the plasterer boarded the lath walls upstairs and ceiling and skimmed the ceiling and a couple of walls. But downstairs the ceiling again was on a 1-1Â½â€ slant across the horizon and was very noticeable with the plasterboard dipping below the timber stair well skirtings. They were scratching their heads as to how to resolve it but had given themselves a tight time frame of 3 days for the gypsum boarding and skimming upstairs and downstairs ceiling included, so they could do the lime plaster downstairs and over the external soild brick wall Mon to Fri the following week. They were to use Lime Green Ultra and LG solo finishing.

I popped out to get some wood on Friday lunchtime. Came back and they were gone. I thought it an early finish even for a Friday, and noticed the dust sheets were gone. Monday morning, I waited for them to not turn up. Tried a message, a call, a text, a voicemail over a few hours but no response!

The next day I called the lime supplier whoâ€™d recommended him, and they called him for me. He told them I wanted everything â€˜laser level' and that we needed a joiner! Iâ€™d waited 4 months living in a building site and had I known we needed a joiner, they would have been easy to find! We've been upset but to be honest are now so apathetic, we are just taking the stress out on one another and it's right messed up the summer holiday for our daughter â€“ us arguing.

I thought I had a plan, when I first hired the dot and dab plasterer/builder back in January! I thought getting it replastered was the easy bit, as plasterers are everywhere on the trades groups, advertising for work! Thing is, I didn't know about lime at the time and they pretty much all only know gypsum. I didnâ€™t reckon on there being a massive skill shortage for lime, or Brexit logistical issues!

We managed to get a really good joiner round last week on the last week of the school holidays, and he 'laser leveledâ€™ the hall ceiling, and boarded it, after removing the laths and remaining lime plaster, plus architraves where it was still lodged. He screwed new timber to the joists to level. He's also screwed 25mm x 30mm roofing battens at 600mm centres where possible, to the internal solid brick wall, in prep for boarding. He was going to build out the door frames a little too, and do other jobs we needed, but thatâ€™s when I stumbled upon this forum and read about similar projects needling to meet building regs!!

This never started out as an insulation upgrade. It was to make our relatively newly bought 96yr old house, (1yr here) safe to live in, from damaged asbestos plaster - not flagged up in the full building survey we'd had commissioned privately. Now weâ€™ve already spent 2k on plaster removal and it's looking at many more Â£Â£Â£ to get it back to a decoratable finish.

Sorry about my sob story. Iâ€™m actually sick of hearing it! I need action now, and quickly, as a Winter with it like it is and my partner blaming me for getting us into this situation, is not something I want to face!
I just want to get the external solid brick wall lime plastered again, reinstating what was there, as the wall is lime mortared and any other finish will not be breathable. The bricks outside are in good condition. It is half rendered at the top with a recent render and looks great! Really leaving no possibility of external insulation. The stair case only has a 30mm depth on the stair string, so can't be built out further without reducing the stair width. We can't afford a new staircase.

The house is not in a conservation area or listed. But it is a really well set out building with beautiful greenery out the back and worth treating with respect.

I had a plasterer around last week, who said he used horse hair and lime putty bought in, but he said he could see most plasterers not wanting such a job and... he hasn't returned a quote! I left a message yesterday but no response.

So that's the story. Thanks, as I say, for any advice!

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:54:56 +0100

Current landing photo

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:04:12 +0100

From hallway downstairs

The building regs confuses me, as behind the stair string and under the stairs, is still original non asbestos lime plaster. And if you look at the external wall from outside the house, it includes the kitchen running back and the bathroom upstairs. There is a tall double glazed window in the landing too.

I see you say scratch coat of lime 8-10mm Nick. Ok if I can get anyone to do that, but a 100mm woodfibre board, plus lime finish would massively encroach the stair width! ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜©

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:07:10 +0100

I've placed a tape measure of 110mm roughly to the brick to show what I mean. The stair width is currently 790mm.

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:02:07 +0100

So if I'm correct, the rough calculations for the external brick wall (within the hallway area) are 29.7mÂ² - 4.6mÂ² for the triangular area of the staircase (which I've halved from the rectangular area). Remove the front bedroom area of 6.5mÂ² too, leaves 18.6mÂ² of brick wall.

50% of the 29.7mÂ² total rectanglular area is 14.85mÂ² making the wall over 50% by 3.75mÂ². ðŸ˜”

But again, the brick wall from the outside of the house is much larger as takes in the kitchen and upstairs bathroom walls, which are still plastered. So I don't get it?

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Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:09:54 +0100

I believe the building regs have get out clauses where if it is impracticable to comply with the insulation requirements on referbisment - you don't have to. I'm sure someone here with more up to date info about the UK regs will be able to advise.
I wouldn't phone up the building regs dept. and rattle their cage because that could lead to unnecessary complications.

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:11:03 +0100

Also... If it is just the external walls that come under BRs, does that mean that I can at least get the internal walls plasterboarded and not need to super insulate those?

Again, it will be tricky next to the front door, as there isn't really the room to build out a 100mm insulation layer, as there would be no room for the light switch next to the door.

I'd just like to get a radiator back on in the hall for Winter.

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:17:49 +0100

I haven't contacted BC yet, as don't really know how. I tried calling my local council dept the other day but it said only certain departments were taking calls and BC wasn't listed. So I'd have to email I guess.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryI believe the building regs have get out clauses where if it is impracticable to comply with the insulation requirements on referbisment - you don't have to. I'm sure someone here with more up to date info about the UK regs will be able to advise.
I wouldn't phone up the building regs dept. and rattle their cage because that could lead to unnecessary complications.

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Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:18:15 +0100

Internal walls don't need insulation.

The internal wall looks ready to receive plaster board - so go for it !

By the way the doors look good as does the floor !!

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Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:22:00 +0100

If you select HTML at the bottom of the comments box the quotes come out in blue which makes the post a bit better.
And I wouldn't email the building regs dept.!!

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BiscuitsAndTea — Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:32:18 +0100

Ok. I'll hold off and get on with the internal walls as soon as I can find regular plasterer for that. Originally I was having all brick downstairs done in insulating lime. Was so looking forward to nice solid sounding walls down there vs plasterboard but beggars can't be choosers!

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryIf you select HTML at the bottom of the comments box the quotes come out in blue which makes the post a bit better.
And I wouldn't email the building regs dept.!!

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Nick Parsons — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:57:56 +0100

A picture (or two or 3) paints 1000 words. Sorry, busy with work, but will get back after the weekend with my thoughts on a solution for the stairs. Clue: It will involve thin insulation board. Yes, go ahead with internals, though to reduce thermal bridging in certain cases you may want/do to 'return' insulation from the external wall to the internal for a small distance. At worst that bit can be cut back. (For me 'short distance typically means <400mm). Nick

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GreenPaddy — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:12:32 +0100

I feel your pain. I have projects that are months behind schedule, due to normally reliable tradesmen behaving like complete morons, cause they have too many jobs, and can't work out how to prioritise in a mature, professional way...and I've been in construction management for 30 years.

From what I can see you have 2 external walls to refinish. Stair wall, and a small bit around the door.

In your shoes, I would stick with the insulated plaster. You only have maybe 25mm to play with, (judging by the stair stringer), and around the door is such a small area, that the important thing will be to ensure you insulate and seal very well around the door frame. Also look carefully at the junction at floor level and into the floor void, as I bet there's lots of cold air blowing around under your lovely timber floor.

If you want to make your life more of a misery, start involving all sorts of different insulation boards and construction techniques. That will scare off most tradesmen. Pretty much every tradesman around here is taking no more work till next year.

- so you may have to wait
- you may have to accept that this area of wall has a rubbish level of insulation

Insulated lime plaster, and get on with your life. Good luck.

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kristeva — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:24:30 +0100

Posted By: BiscuitsAndTeaI haven't contacted BC yet, as don't really know how. I tried calling my local council dept the other day but it said only certain departments were taking calls and BC wasn't listed. So I'd have to email I guess.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryI believe the building regs have get out clauses where if it is impracticable to comply with the insulation requirements on referbisment - you don't have to. I'm sure someone here with more up to date info about the UK regs will be able to advise.
I wouldn't phone up the building regs dept. and rattle their cage because that could lead to unnecessary complications.

I don't get it, why do you need BC involved for this? What percentage of plaster have you removed from the house?

BC are usually on your local government website, but I wouldn't bother calling them in at all. Consider using gypsum plaster for the internal walls, and as Peter says no insulation required. The hardest job, as you know, will be finding someone who can lime plaster the external wall, maybe ask the plasterer who does the internal walls if he'll give it a go.

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Peter_in_Hungary — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:52:44 +0100

Posted By: kristevaConsider using gypsum plaster for the internal walls

+1
No need to have breathable finish in internal walls and (gypsum) plaster will sound and feel a lot more solid than plaster board.

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revor — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:33:40 +0100

You could consider not using any plaster at all by getting a company specialising in dry lining where they use tapered edged plasterboard bonded to the wall the joints taped and filled and left for you to decorate. A much quicker and cleaner job than plastering. You can also get tapered edge insulated board where that may be needed. A skilled team can be very quick. You may need someone to finish the ceiling but even so a dry lining finisher could possibly sort that.
Here is an intro
http://wall2wallfinishes.co.uk/whatisdrylining.html

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philedge — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:37:27 +0100

In your position Id leave things as they are til next spring and spend the autumn/winter sorting out the detail of what youre going to do and getting trades in place to do what you want. Maybe paint a coat of sealant on the walls to keep dust down.

Plastering down to the top of floor boards wont stop draughts from under the floor so maybe look at dealing with those before plastering.

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djh — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:58:23 +0100

Posted By: kristevaI don't get it, why do you need BC involved for this? What percentage of plaster have you removed from the house?

It's not the percentage of the house that matters, it's the percentage of the 'thermal element', which for a renovation of a room is the area of external wall within the room. From the photos it looks like the entire wall has been stripped.

There's some explanation at e.g. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/when-do-i-need-building-regulations-approval-renovating-thermal-element

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djh — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:12 +0100

Posted By: BiscuitsAndTeaI'd just like to get a radiator back on in the hall for Winter.

That should be possible. Just put the radiator back in place and open the isolating valves. It's a DIY job, or a quick job for a plumber. Unless there is something complicated? A picture would help

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kristeva — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:38:52 +0100

Posted By: djh
Posted By: kristevaI don't get it, why do you need BC involved for this? What percentage of plaster have you removed from the house?

It's not the percentage of the house that matters, it's the percentage of the 'thermal element', which for a renovation of a room is the area of external wall within the room. From the photos it looks like the entire wall has been stripped.

There's some explanation at e.g. https://www.labc.co.uk/news/when-do-i-need-building-regulations-approval-renovating-thermal-element

But would they really be interested in opening an application for that, my BC certainly wasn't interested in my bare external walls (the entire downstairs), he was only interested in my new joists and soil pipe, and only asked to have my developing upstairs bathroom put under his watch.

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philedge — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:46:26 +0100

Posted By: kristevamy BC certainly wasn't interested in my bare external walls (the entire downstairs)

Not sure if you can ask for an different BCO, but a bit concerning that hes way behind the times.

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kristeva — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:15:36 +0100

Posted By: philedge
Posted By: kristevamy BC certainly wasn't interested in my bare external walls (the entire downstairs)

Not sure if you can ask for an different BCO, but a bit concerning that hes way behind the times.

I must admit I was a bit surprised, but I think he took into account the age of the house, the difficulty of IWI, and the thickness of wood fibre insulation I was planning to use and was happy with the compromise.

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djh — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:12:53 +0100

Posted By: kristeva
Posted By: philedge
Posted By: kristevamy BC certainly wasn't interested in my bare external walls (the entire downstairs)

Not sure if you can ask for an different BCO, but a bit concerning that hes way behind the times.

I must admit I was a bit surprised, but I think he took into account the age of the house, the difficulty of IWI, and the thickness of wood fibre insulation I was planning to use and was happy with the compromise.

I don't remember your circumstances but it sounds like the BCO did take an interest in the insulation and discussed it with you and was then happy to use his discretion? But probably best discussed elsewhere rathe than in this topic.

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Nick Parsons — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 17:22:56 +0100

djh and I are in possession of the same 'hymn-sheet' with regard to Approved Document L1B of the Building Regs. For IWI they refer to the percentage of wall to be 'renovated' *in the room you are stood in*. There are get-out clauses, which allow common-sense tom prevail, but don't let that stop you getting the best insulation and air-tightness performance you can in the circumstances (and the circumstances will include lack of space, your preference for particular materials and many other things. There is a particular statement with regard to houses built with materials designed to allow the passage of water vapour (like yours).

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vord — Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:21:23 +0100

It's a shame they removed the lime plaster. Artex can generally be removed by making it very wet and peeling it off.

Trades do seem tricky to get this year (and last). I'm delaying work because I don't want to spend 4 times the normal price.

As said If it's an interior wall there is no need for insulation. If it's an exterior wall there is a lot of insulation benefit in the wall being bone dry. Lime built properties (with no exterior plastic paint or cement pointing) tend to be bone dry. Modern walls are soaking wet. Impervious bricks, mortars and paints prevent the wall from drying. The bad U value is assumed for modern construction.

It is good practice to maintain lime throughout - inside and outside. Outside is a lot more important for drying the walls. For inside it's pleasant if excess moisture is absorbed by the wall then hopefully ejected outside or released back inside when it's more dry in there. Lime is good for that. You don't get the mould you get on new builds.

I certainly wouldn't tell building regs what you are doing. Building out the wall with insulation will cause all sorts of trouble on the stairs.