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Heating and cooling: Best method of heating large workshop/art studio

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    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    Hello, newly registered newbie here, so go easy on me ! I am in the process of renovating a stable block (17m x 4.8) to become a wood working shop for me and an art studio for the other half. I would like advice or ideas on heating the space. Ideally I would like it kept at around 15 deg throughout the winter to keep the condensation down and be able to ramp up the temperature to 20 odd when the building is in use. The structure of the stable will be timber frame insulated with 50mm kingspan equivalent, Tyvek house wrap and cedar clad on the outside walls, vapour barrier and plasterboard internally. Roof structure is cut timber roof, semi vaulted with 70mm kingspan and topped off with membrane and box section roofing. Internal again as per walls. Floors are 100mm concrete base with potentially 50mm kingspan and 65 screed with UFH. Heat source is a redundant oil boiler from our house. I guess the question I pose is, is the heating best done with UFH or radiators (saving money on the screed) or any other suggestions...
  2.  
    Welcome!

    Assuming that Building Regs apply, 50mm PIR may/nay, I think *will*, be insufficient to meet the requirements of Part L1B (a U value of 0.3 for the walls). Re the roof, do you mean exg 70mm PIR plus 50mm PIR? If so you may *just* squeeze in under the 0.18W/m2K that Part L1B requires.

    Is the stable detached? If so, the 'base-case' U value will be around 0.77W/m2K, and the R value 1.298m2K/W. 60mm of PIR would just get you in under 0.25W/m2K. 50mm wouldn't.

    Anyway, if this is not considered 'ancillary accommodation' to a house, you may be bound by L2B (non domestic).

    I am sorry I have not answered the 'how to heat?' Q, but needing a lot less would be good!
  3.  
    I don't think there is enough insulation planned by half, i.e double at least would be better.

    How often will the building be in use. UFH is slow to react. you will need to heat in advance of use and switch of before work is finished to avoid starting in the cold and wasting heat at the finish. You don't say if this an 8 hours a day, 5 - 6 days a week or 2 or 3 evenings plus weekends. It makes a big difference for the heating decisions.

    Whatever you do you need to insulate the slab with 100mm insulation minimum, I would suggest using EPS probably the cheapest / U value.

    If you want to ramp up the heat quickly then best would be a reasonably well insulated building with industrial hot air heaters - otherwise IMO radiators would be better than UFH.

    IMO the two parts would need separate controls (I presume the studio and wood shop will be divided for reasons of dirt and dust) because I suspect the studio will need a temperature that would be uncomfortable in a wood shop
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    thanks for the comments and questions. I am not involving building control so insulation levels are for building efficiency and economy. I am limited on the slab for insulation depth due to ceiling height and again for the walls and ceiling insulation I have to find an economic compromise of insulation vs cost given the horrendous cost of kingspan type products. As regards to use of the structure it will vary, some days I would hope to tinker all day in the workshop, as with the art studio, it’s use will be random.

    How would you keep the structure condensation free? Is heating it to certain temp necessary to achieve this? I hear what you are saying about the slow reaction time for UFH but is it more economic to keep the building at a low temp constantly with UFH or radiators?
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    I am planning to zone the area, roughly 2/3 workshop 1/3 studio
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    Have a look at Infrared panels esp. ceiling mount.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    Posted By: ryanpis it more economic to keep the building at a low temp constantly with UFH or radiators?

    The most economic way to keep a building at a low temperature is with insulation, not heating.

    I don't understand the construction buildup, given this is a renovation of stables.

    Where are you? How are building control not involved?

    If you're building a timber frame and concerned about cost then one solution is to make the timber frame thicker and use cheaper insulation, such as EPS or rockwool. Or add insulation to the outside of the timber frame.
  8.  
    As others mentioned, legally youll need building regs/standards and maybe planning permission for changing use from an unheated agri building into a heated workspace. If you don't get these, you're at risk of making the property unsaleable, as well as being in legal jeopardy yourself, and invalidating your buildings insurance (which affects a mortgage).

    But by insulating it well, you'll save money, be more comfortable, enjoy the work space more and even save the planet!

    Looking ahead, the end of oil boilers is almost in sight (banned in new-build from 2025) so your second boiler is likely to be a heat pump. You could save the cost of an oil tank and flue etc, and go straight for a heat pump. Air-to-air heat pumps might suit you if you don't mind some background noise when you are working, but for air-to-water heat pumps you will want underfloor heating.
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    Thanks I now understand about the building regs. I was wrongly under the impression that by insulating an existing building and making it more comfortable for use in the winter months would not require building regs. I will consult my local authorities. Would regs still apply if it was heated by non permanent means, ie portable oil heaters?
    I see the value of increasing the insulation amounts to trap in any heat. Is ceiling infrared panels an option as someone mentioned?
  10.  
    Posted By: ryanpWould regs still apply if it was heated by non permanent means, ie portable oil heaters?

    It's the change of use or upgrade that causes building regs to kick in - not the heating system. Oh and planning permission as well as stated above
  11.  
    It's more about what 'tips in' the Regs. When you 'renovate' (as defined by the Building Act - they mean 'add or replace a layer') a thermal element (anything which gives onto the outside, incl floors), you have an obligation to meet the standards laid out in approved docs L1B or L2B, unless one of the 'get-out clauses' applies to you. They are clearly set down in the approved docs, which are available at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conservation-of-fuel-and-power-approved-document-l. If you do nothing, you do not have to comply! So you could use portable heaters, or a fixed system with the necessary controls, to heat a leaky stable, but the moment you start to insulate you need to comply. As others have hinted, you should look at doing better than the Regs if you possibly can.

    I am not clear from your first post exactly what the existing building consists of. You say ''the structure of the stable *will be* (my emphasis, NP) timber frame insulated with 50mm kingspan equivalent, Tyvek house wrap and cedar clad on the outside walls, vapour barrier and plasterboard internally". Is it currently timber-frame, but un-insulated? You could perhaps consider timber frame, graphite expanded polystyrene (EPS) external wall insulation (EWI) at a minimum 150mm (and pref more), render and then, if you still want it, cedar cladding. I would use the render (which does not have to look pretty if behind cedar cladding) to give a half-hour fire resistance, which BC will probably want to see anyway.
    • CommentAuthorSilky
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    Hi, Is this an existing Timber frame building? Could you describe it a bit more?
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2020
     
    In particular the solar aspect of the main facade...

    gg
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    It is a traditional timber stable which is timber built out of 3x2 timber and treated shiplap cladding. It is quite old so bits of esp the front face have to be rebuilt to hence the reference to cedar clad and tyvek. The building is within the curtilige of our property so with regard to planning, because it’s been here for at least 10years is it not just a garden building, so it’s use is not defined? The front face is south facing.
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    It is currently in insulated
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    Do you keep horses? Are you going to use it as a home extension/sleeping accommodation? if not it's a shed, No ? Potatoes, potatas! I'd keep it as a shed and as such largely outside of building regulations.
  17.  
    Wot owlman sais +1

    I believe workshops are also exempt from building regs part L.

    However whilst it may be outside the building regs - so no paperwork needed (confirm this for your self - https://www.planningportal.co.uk ) the insulation you detail in the opening is IMO too little and unless you have a cheap source of Kingspan or are severely constrained on space then white ESP is usually the cheapest form of board insulation to get to a desired U value
    • CommentAuthorSilky
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020 edited
     
    my feeling is it sounds a bit lightweight and maybe the structure is not strong enough to carry more insulation than you have specified, so now I see why you have opted for Kingspan. Otherwise I would have said go for a fully breathable strucuture and use Wood fibre boards (T&G) on the outside behind the cladding and under the roof, and then additional insulation between rafters / frame. But even then with 3x2 you are going to be lacking thermal mass and I think you have a high risk of summer overheating which could be a bigger problem than heating. Tricky one.

    Personally, if I was going to go to such lengths to create a nice space I would be tempted to take it down and put up a new 'shed' out of 30 or 36cm deep Poroton blocks and then just have them rendered/plastered in and out. More robust solution without all the fiddling of membranes and insulation, and would provide a comfortable climate for a workshop/studio room. If the building is wide enough ( but I fear not ) You could also do a halfway house which would be to keep the existing strucutre as your 'cladding' and build a new blockwork structure inside. It is difficult to find highly insulated blocks in shallower depths, but I think there are some options. ( checkout Poroton WDF in 12 and 8 cm, although these are not load bearing ) and there are non-filled load bearing insulated blocks from some other companies (not sure of availabilty in UK, could dig up some names if interested).
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    Ok so I am now v confused!! Does my shed need regs? It was once a stable for horses now it is a shed for my woodworking bits and wife’s artsy things which we want to be a bit warmer in the winter. I will put double the insulation in EPS as recommended. What about heating?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
  21.  
    It sounds like it's currently an agricultural building, which is exempt from building standards in Scotland and probably also in England. If it's converted into a 'shed' or 'outbuilding' then they are unheated. But sounds like you want to convert it into a large heated accommodation, which makes it subject to both planning and building stds hereabouts. The change of use triggers the regs in this case, not the physical modification.

    Our council have a number you can call certainl days and speak to the duty planning officer, they have been pretty helpful in guiding us what can be done.

    There's a welltrodden route round here, where hardup farm folks put up 'agri buildings' unrestricted, then shortly after they convert them into 'farm workshops', and then into industrial units for lease to car repairers or scrap dealers. Or into 'bothies' for seasonal workers, then into holiday lets, then into housing developments for sale. The planning department are understandably keen to crack down on this kind of usage creep. Im sure you're not planning a scam like that, but everyone has to follow the rules!

    This is green building forum, so certainly insulate well before you start heating. Good suggestions up there for treating it as a cladding shell, and building an insulated envelope inside it. Look at fermacell rather than plasterboard on the walls as good strength for workshop/studio things like shelves and knocks
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    Thanks for the comments I will contact our local planning officer and check with them. I guess what I don’t understand is that the shed is within the domestic curtilage of my property as shown on planning maps, so what change of use am I looking for? The stable block is not on farmland.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    If that south-facing facade gets reasonable winter sun (i.e. no masks...) then why not try for a solar wall, with perforated panels and an extraction fan inside, to heat your air supply.

    In event of off-days, maybe low-cost infrared heating, staring at a bit of thermal mass...

    gg
  24.  
    The outbuildings regs cited above cover buildings up to 30m2 so your building is too big for this regulation to apply.

    The building exists and it is my understanding that if you don't change the external appearance or roof line or make it habitable then PP would not be needed. e.g. repairs would have to be in sympathy with the existing. You might have an issue if it still looks like a stable but if it was modified some time ago and no longer has horse boxes and stable doors to the front then its a big shed!

    Part L of the building regs says basically everything is subject to part L except buildings under regulation 21
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/regulation/21/made
    from which (amongst other exceptions)
    3)(c)temporary buildings with a planned time of use of two years or less, industrial sites, workshops and non-residential agricultural buildings with low energy demand;
    So IMO workshops are exempt from part L

    Biggest source of trouble IMO would be if it is highly visible from the road and changes you make are a bit blatant and glaringly obvious and / or a neighbour reporting you because they either don't like what you are doing or you.

    For heating, I would go with radiators because they are more responsive than UFH and probably cheaper to install. For the smaller studio perhaps a (secondhand?) wood stove installed with a double walled pre-fab chimney as these can give out heat within minutes.
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    Ah great thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I don’t want to fall foul of any authority or neighbors so I will give planners and bco a call to clarify. The building is in need of repair however I look at it and can’t see why a perfectly good structure can’t be put to good use and given another lease of life in another role !
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2020
     
    Apologies if you mentioned it already but is this project a business one, or simply a hobby pursuit.
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2020
     
    Just hobby
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2020
     
    Air to air heat pump combined with a wood burner would seem the simplest option. Possibly a dehumidifier as well if you are doing precise woodwork. Nothing worse than fluctuating humidity when making complex furniture.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2020
     
    Passive design, insulate, maximise winter solar gain, eliminate in house winter cooling systems, 3g, air tight, then if needed ASHP but please don’t burn wood, unhealthy and polluting. Ideally lighting, people, equipment should do all the heating needed.
    • CommentAuthorryanp
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2020
     
    We are planning an ASHP for a renovation of our home so will so how that works out

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