Green Building Forum - Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:31:41 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201314#Comment_201314 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201314#Comment_201314 Mon, 05 May 2014 09:39:00 +0100 Harefield ]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201319#Comment_201319 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201319#Comment_201319 Mon, 05 May 2014 10:31:07 +0100 markocosic
Unless you're building a massive house or one with truly godawful fabric performance, that stove will be of no use to you anyhow. The minimum output will be too high to be useful.]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201322#Comment_201322 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201322#Comment_201322 Mon, 05 May 2014 11:14:47 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: markocosicWhy do you give a shit about SAP?My thought entirely. As long as you scrape through for building regulations purposes it's desirable to have the worst SAP rating possible if you ever want to grub around with RHI. Otherwise it really doesn't matter - what matters is how the house actually performs.]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201324#Comment_201324 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201324#Comment_201324 Mon, 05 May 2014 11:50:01 +0100 Harefield Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201325#Comment_201325 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201325#Comment_201325 Mon, 05 May 2014 12:23:04 +0100 nigel Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201327#Comment_201327 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201327#Comment_201327 Mon, 05 May 2014 12:26:00 +0100 Gotanewlife Posted By: HarefieldI want to install a small pellet boiler
Posted By: Harefieldlike the Pallazetti Anita 13kW
????? As Mark says, that's going to chuck out a lot of heat into your room (speaking as the owner of a pellet boiler)]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201339#Comment_201339 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201339#Comment_201339 Mon, 05 May 2014 14:30:55 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: HarefieldWhen you say scrape through the building regs, are you referring to a pass on the dwelling emissions rate (DER)?To be honest, I really don't know, having taken almost no interest in the subject, but yes, something like that. For my own rather-bizarre off-grid design the house designer will put in some plausible numbers to reflect aspects of the proposed house which fit with the SAP assumptions on house design. So long as there aren't outright lies and building control are happy that's all I care about.]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201361#Comment_201361 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201361#Comment_201361 Mon, 05 May 2014 20:42:15 +0100 Harefield Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201366#Comment_201366 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201366#Comment_201366 Mon, 05 May 2014 21:29:51 +0100 markocosic
That says the fabric of the building is pretty abysmal. You've got one of the lowest (notional) CO2 outputs per kWh, even after the 65% emissions hit, and the emissions rate is still marginal. It'd be way over on gas or in reality for wood...

(see Table 12 of SAP)

Fixing the fabric is relatively cheap to address at design stage. It doesn't matter how you heat the thing if the base load is de-minimus, as it ought to be on a new build.

If you want the lipstick on a pig approach of poor fabric plus play games with CO2 per kWh of heat then have a read of Appendix J. I think you can use manufacturer data for a solid fuel appliance to get an equivalent seasonal efficiency factor for the device that's >65%, no?

http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/SAP/2012/SAP-2012_9-92.pdf]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201372#Comment_201372 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=201372#Comment_201372 Tue, 06 May 2014 08:43:14 +0100 Triassic Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261377#Comment_261377 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261377#Comment_261377 Tue, 19 Sep 2017 10:15:42 +0100 Jeremy S http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/page.jsp?id=48" >here you'll get an idea of why there are so few items on the list...]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261423#Comment_261423 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261423#Comment_261423 Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:13:12 +0100 ActivePassive
The Stroma FSAP 2012 tool, does allow you to select 'Manufacturers Declaration' and then manually type in the boilers efficiency, which appears to have a direct impact on the EPC rating - so I am guessing there is no 65% default. I am not sure whether an assessor would accept a manufacturers declaration given the regulations, but some can be more flexible than others - chose your assessor carefully!]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261442#Comment_261442 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261442#Comment_261442 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:00:09 +0100 DarylP
The EPC has a choice; (tested) PCDF value or SAP default.
These are the rules.

fyi Open fires are taken to be 37% efficient at best; from SAP2012 Table 4a:
Open fire in grate C 37 32]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261443#Comment_261443 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261443#Comment_261443 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:52:51 +0100 Sigaldry
BS EN 14785:2006 'Residential space heating appliances fired by wood pellets – Requirements and test methods' covers efficiency of pellet boilers.

Efficiency test results are normally calculated using the net calorific value of fuel. Before a declaration can be
made, conversion to gross must be carried out by multiplying the efficiency by the appropriate conversion factor (0.91 for pellets according to table E4), So check with the supplier if its a net or gross efficiency value.

It notes in section E2 of SAP that "Manufacturers’ declarations so calculated should be accompanied by the following form of words: "The net efficiency of this appliance has been measured as specified in [insert appropriate entry from Table E1, Table E2 or Table E3] and the result after conversion to gross using the appropriate factor from Table E4 of SAP 2009 is [x]%. The test data have been certified by [insert name and/or identification of Notified Body]. The gross efficiency value may be used in the UK Government’s Standard Assessment Procedure (SAP) for energy rating of dwellings."

So it appears that you definitely can use manufacturers declared efficiencies. From an audit point of view for production of EPC, you'd need to ensure that suitably thorough evidence of performance is available.]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261444#Comment_261444 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261444#Comment_261444 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 12:39:08 +0100 nigel
In the end I had to wait for 18 months until the product was eventually added to the PCDB list otherwise I would still be waiting.]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261445#Comment_261445 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261445#Comment_261445 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:36:10 +0100 DarylP ..... a bit like having a list of every car model in the market, but only being able to use the ones that have certified MPG figures...?:confused:]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261446#Comment_261446 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261446#Comment_261446 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 13:52:35 +0100 Sigaldry
SAP (and EPC production) allows for suitably evidenced alternatives.

There's a whole catalogue of tested performance information available from HETAS for solid fuel boilers, cookers and secondary heating appliances that can be used available at https://www.hetas.co.uk/find-appliance/ (although as noted previously, you do need to ensure you are quoting the correct efficiency and must keep evidence for audit).

The MCS list is one list of efficiencies, with links to evidence that could be used.

Similarly there's data out there from various industry sites for PV, Solar hot water, loss factors for cylinders, windows and a lot more - or direct from manufacturers.

You just need to ensure that the evidence is there to support what goes into an EPC - which is why there is accreditation, auditing, conventions and qualifications.

PCDF doesn't include a lot of older ventilation systems, or ones that won't perform as well, there's a lot of heat pumps missing - what it does do is include most gas boilers (because that's kind of where it started). There's nothing to force a manufacturer to apply for their data to be included. They generally will only choose to do so if their tested efficiency or energy demand is reasonably good.

(edited typoes)]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261447#Comment_261447 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261447#Comment_261447 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 14:50:09 +0100 DarylP I agree the PCDF is not the 'be all and end all' of information repositories, but for EPCs it seems to be? :shamed:]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261448#Comment_261448 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261448#Comment_261448 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:29:09 +0100 Sigaldry
For wood / pellet systems - there's not enough of them in the PCDF. Although the conventions do also note that the most recent version of the PCDF should always be used.

If you look at latest SAP conventions section 1.01 notes:

"SAP provides default values for many items, such as window U-values and boiler efficiency.

Whenever specific product information is available, that should be used rather than default values.

However when using any specific values there needs to be documentary evidence to support them, and such evidence should be made available to building control on request.

For items using the database, the evidence required is that the specific named product, e.g. boiler, is the one being used."

Convention 4.02 specifically notes for ventilation, it's PCDF or default value.

Convention 6.01 specifically notes for Micro-CHP, it's PCDF or default value.

For room heaters, SAP Section 10 notes: If declared efficiency is available (see Appendix E) use instead of value from table.

SAP does note for Solid fuel boilers "For efficiency, use product database if possible, otherwise use efficiency from this table." So I guess Elmhurst could be right, but then convention 1.01 does seem to counter that as does the note in Section 10 for room heaters.

I'd try and make an argument in those circumstances if there is sufficient test data available, but the selected device were not in the PCDF. Ultimately though, it's down to what the accreditation scheme will accept.]]> Lack of Pellet boilers/stoves on SAP PCDB http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261449#Comment_261449 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12052&Focus=261449#Comment_261449 Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:33:13 +0100 DarylP It makes a well designed new house look a lot worse on the EPC than on the DS SAP calc....so I have to go back to the clients to explain my AB...:cry:]]>