Green Building Forum - EU:- in or out? Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:35:00 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240961#Comment_240961 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240961#Comment_240961 Thu, 19 May 2016 21:27:58 +0100 owlman :wink::bigsmile:]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240963#Comment_240963 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240963#Comment_240963 Thu, 19 May 2016 21:56:15 +0100 djh
I think all the arguments about economics are pointless. It's impossible to know what will happen to even state whether we'll be better off or worse off. If it's going to cause ructions elsewhere in the world, then the rest of the world needs to plan for it, I don't think it should be a concern of ours.

Security I don't know enough to say. I have heard that our intelligence deals are bilateral and the European level is not that important, but I don't know whether that is true.

Immigration feels like there should be more control out of the EU with a system that lets us choose the most useful applicants.

I'm strongly against TTIP so getting out of the EU should reduce the risk of being part of that. As I understand it the default position is WTO rules which I think means an average (extra?) rate of duty of 3% which doesn't sound so bad.

You'll be guessing which way I'm inclined by now, but to me the killer is the euro. I believe that sooner or later it will blow up, or much less likely there will be full political union of the euro nations. And I tend to think that a blow up sooner rather than later is most likely. I don't want to be part of a club going through a storm like that.

So I'll be voting leave unless somebody produces some more convincing arguments to remain.

Who's next ... ?]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240965#Comment_240965 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240965#Comment_240965 Thu, 19 May 2016 22:26:09 +0100 Ed Davies
History of Europe:
War
War
War
War
War
War
War
Arguments about bananas.

To be honest, I'll probably go with banana arguments. #remain
We're living in a world with some very large economic blocs (the US and China). If Europe doesn't hang together then having the likes of TTIP pushed on us will just be the beginnings of our problems (even if the current UK government would want to resist).

Personally, I think there's an awful lot wrong with the way the EU is run but the problem is not, as many would have it, that it's too powerful but, quite the opposite, that the individual governments are too powerful and the European Parliament, etc, doesn't get enough say. The result is that democracy is too indirect to be effective.

I'd very much like the UK to remain in the EU but failing that I think Scotland would be better off in the EU than in an “independent” UK.

[¹] https://twitter.com/pavilionopinion/status/726172850005118976]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240966#Comment_240966 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240966#Comment_240966 Thu, 19 May 2016 22:29:37 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: djhI think all the arguments about economics are pointless. It's impossible to know what will happen to even state whether we'll be better off or worse off.Yep - nobody knows enough to really tell - arguments based on short-term economics are just a proxy for more emotional considerations which are harder to articulate.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240967#Comment_240967 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240967#Comment_240967 Thu, 19 May 2016 22:56:57 +0100 Silky
but on to graver matters.. they did the Euro, which was utterly idiotic and against the advice of the economic experts, it's been a disaster for many countries creating crippling youth unemployment in Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. They fail to admit their mistakes. It's not democratic in a way that I find acceptable. The way the Lisbon treaty was brought in was contemptible.. and so on and so on.. I could go on for pages but the prior points are enough justification. So I have to vote unselfishly with my conscious.. out! I'm all for pan-European cooperation but not like this. Maybe Brexit could trigger some wholesale reform.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240968#Comment_240968 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240968#Comment_240968 Thu, 19 May 2016 23:27:51 +0100 alexphd1 EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240969#Comment_240969 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240969#Comment_240969 Thu, 19 May 2016 23:52:46 +0100 willie.macleod Posted By: Ed Davies
Personally, I think there's an awful lot wrong with the way the EU is run but the problem is not, as many would have it, that it's too powerful but, quite the opposite, that the individual governments are too powerful and the European Parliament, etc, doesn't get enough say. The result is that democracy is too indirect to be effective.


That's about as far on the opposite end of the spectrum as you get from most folk I know! Democracy is best when local folk are held accountable for their work, giving endless amounts of power to folk that aren't accountable to anyone normally ends badly. More power at a local level allows for better accountability and less buck passing.

As for Scotland better off in the EU instead of the UK, not sure about that as we could realistically achieve next to nothing in negotiations, even as part of the UK see that disaster made with regards to our fishing and farming industries. I think we as a nation are clever enough to come up sensible, appropriate rules and regulations ourselves and don't need people a million miles away to tell us how to run things.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240970#Comment_240970 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240970#Comment_240970 Thu, 19 May 2016 23:54:21 +0100 Gotanewlife
Then there's the turbulence that will hit the UK whilst the mess of leaving is sorted out (ie as separate from any problems the EU may face) and for sure that will take 10 years and hold the UK back to a degree that in my view will not provide a justifiable ROI; the advantages of large economic blocs; and the integration that stabilises. (6 years ago I knew people who had friends who lost children to the bayonet, to others who seem to be cauldrons covered in a thin veneer of civilisation brought about by being in the EU, and these are military officers).

Lastly, that hornets nest of immigration - well I am an emigrant and I wouldn't have been able to go to a non-EU country, so it would be mightily 2-faced of me to vote against something that gave me my GBF log-in name wouldn't it! Putting that aside, the UK has been forever changed by integration and immigrants - forever changed as in can't be turned back, my gut tells me for the better but I can't argue against those whose gut tells them for the worse - what I do say is that horse has fled and closing the stable door will do no good now - we (the UK) have moved too far in this direction. More obliquely, perhaps the UK is actually doing what it has always done, and done well, over the last couple of hundred years - it is just that the velocity is far greater than ever before.

In for me.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240972#Comment_240972 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240972#Comment_240972 Fri, 20 May 2016 00:23:56 +0100 willie.macleod Posted By: Gotanewlife
Lastly, that hornets nest of immigration - well I am an emigrant and I wouldn't have been able to go to a non-EU country, so it would be mightily 2-faced of me to vote against something that gave me my GBF log-in name wouldn't it!

Immigration - gets on my goat. Any EU national can come live here, get a part time job, claim benefits, housing etc. However, like in the case of my brother where has has a non EU national spouse and a child, they couldn't move back and settle as a family in the UK unless they moved back into a pre-arranged job with decent (for rural Scotland) pay (over £22k). Even then they would have to pay extra for NHS care for spouse and child, no benefits etc. UK nationals and their families are being punished by the home office in an effort to reduce immigration figures - the real immigration problem is EU nationals, not UK nationals coming home with families. It wouldn't be so bad if the UK government applied the same rigorous immigration standard to all - that at least would be fairer, but a barrier that high would never be allowed by the EU.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240974#Comment_240974 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240974#Comment_240974 Fri, 20 May 2016 00:30:00 +0100 Gotanewlife Posted By: willie.macleodthe real immigration problem is EU nationals, not UK nationals coming home with familiesHmm - at the risk of going down a rabbit hole rather than keeping it general - Wille clearly you are exercised by this but I am not sure you were your normal coherent self in that post!]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240975#Comment_240975 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240975#Comment_240975 Fri, 20 May 2016 00:41:48 +0100 willie.macleod

You're right, its late and I need bed. TBH I haven't met a EU immigrant locally I haven't got on with, the ones that come over here are generally good workers. Level playing field though with regards to immigration would be good, if it wasn't for the family connections then I wouldn't really be bothered I suppose.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240977#Comment_240977 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240977#Comment_240977 Fri, 20 May 2016 07:23:46 +0100 orangemannot based on my experience of working within local government at a relatively low level(parks and cemeteries) from watching the horrendous waste and inefficiency and nonproductive Empire building within our own larger organasation, also knowing of some of the shennanigans of our own "folks on the hill" = Stormont + plus keeping another lot of even harder to keep snouts in Gold-Plated troughs in Westminister.
The absolute last thing we need, is to be keeping an even larger lot of greedy vain misguided egotistical counter-productive feckers in Brussels.
Simple logic.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240978#Comment_240978 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240978#Comment_240978 Fri, 20 May 2016 07:38:09 +0100 DarylP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_the_energy_performance_of_buildings
Anyone who thinks that if we weren't in the EU, that house energy efficiency standards would have improved since 2006 is deluded.
The big cardboard box builders have been dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century, and almost the 21st....
:cry:
For this reason alone, it's a Yes from me:cry:]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240981#Comment_240981 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240981#Comment_240981 Fri, 20 May 2016 08:27:20 +0100 joe90 EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240982#Comment_240982 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240982#Comment_240982 Fri, 20 May 2016 08:39:58 +0100 atomicbisf
They are very right wing and seem to see any form of environmental, employment, consumer protection etc as red tape to be done away with. There is a big overlap it seems between Euro scepticism and climate change denial. For example Ukip has Lord Monckton who goes around the world telling people it's not real, nothing to worry about etc despite not having any scientific qualifications. Nigel Lawson promotes similar nonsense.

When politicians deny well established science for some political or ideological reason, I think it should disqualify them for being taken seriously.

Ed]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240988#Comment_240988 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240988#Comment_240988 Fri, 20 May 2016 09:19:30 +0100 SteamyTea We interpret directives and then implement and enforce them. Are people that say 'there is too much red tape' saying:
They don't like the subject
They don't like the way it is implemented
They don't like the way it is enforced

Do people think that it would be acceptable to employ people by the hour and get rid of them with no reason or notice, of maybe fine employees for very minor infringements, say dropping a washer on the floor.
Britain has in the past be a very bureaucratic country with very poorly written legislation (actually we still are, look at the legal highs legislation, we will all be on decaf tea soon). What makes people think that we can do better on our own?]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240990#Comment_240990 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240990#Comment_240990 Fri, 20 May 2016 09:45:07 +0100 torrent99
However, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, the whole world is organising into trade blocks, Russia and China are together. The dollar is slowly dying probably to be replaced by the yuan. We are faced with HUGE new competitor countries. And Europe and the "Old" World as a whole (not just the EU) is on the wane. In that context going it alone is a crazy option.

On top of that the western world with it's huge huge huge debts is in ever increasing economic crisis, which may come to a violent head anytime in the next few years. Wider economic union is the probably the only thing which might prevent the war....

I'm for IN.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240991#Comment_240991 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240991#Comment_240991 Fri, 20 May 2016 09:45:49 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: willie.macleodDemocracy is best when local folk are held accountable for their work, …England hasn't had that for a while - well before the Roman invasion.

…giving endless amounts of power to folk that aren't accountable to anyone normally ends badly.
Yep, though it's not obvious why MEPs should be any less accountable than Westminster MPs.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240992#Comment_240992 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240992#Comment_240992 Fri, 20 May 2016 09:50:12 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: torrent99…and the way we seem to obey every EU directive whilst other countries ignore them.Indeed, Britain is a very bureaucratic and over-governed country. I don't see how getting out of the EU will fix that rather than make it worse.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240993#Comment_240993 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240993#Comment_240993 Fri, 20 May 2016 09:59:27 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: torrent99and the way we seem to obey every EU directive whilst other countries ignore them.So if we pull out, with the other other nations say 'Great, the British have gone, we can play by the rules now'.
I can see that happening.

It is really all about trade. And being a participant in a large trading block is the better way.
I work in catering, for a very small company, we have never felt that the EU is holding us back. We keep an eye to the news to make sure that there is nothing that affects us i.e. change of formulas in case they contain different nuts (it was a staff information issue, rather than any rule bending that got the prosecution recently).
Thinking 'your town' can compete in the UK market on its own, is the same as thinking that the UK can compete with the EU.
One of the reasons that we are the 5th largest economy is because we are in the EU. All the economic evidence and opinions are for us to remain, all the reasons to leave are based on speculation and prejudice as far as I can see.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240994#Comment_240994 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240994#Comment_240994 Fri, 20 May 2016 10:18:13 +0100 owlman Many of the founding nations, and even newer ones today, when joining, see the European dream as sort of bastion against various forms of suppression, dictatorship, totalitarianism. I can understand that from their point of view, but we didn't have that history, at least not since the 1600s.

Our, often imperfect, democracy, was ill suited to being dictated to by Brussels. We already had an established and evolving form of democratic government, not perfect, but better than what much of mainland Europe had endured over the years.

The dreamers of UK politics saw/see the UK as exerting influence over the unelected bureaucrats that run the show. The bigger the EU the less likely that becomes. We have to keep trying I hear them saying, but the Franco German carve up set the rules and we were not part of that process. Perhaps De Gaulle was right after all, in not wanting us in.

Through the EU, I see the Europe sliding into a new sort of bureaucratic dictatorship, unrepresentative, interfering, disliked my many of the citizens, wasteful of taxpayers money, inward looking, protectionist, looking to gain popularity by handing out selective alms, unwilling to change.

I distrust the motives of many of the younger political generation of EU devotees, who I fear see the EU as a gravy train onto which they can hop if their UK political dreams falter.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240995#Comment_240995 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240995#Comment_240995 Fri, 20 May 2016 10:21:22 +0100 dickster
But then I was forgetting that if we vote to leave, the spite of the spurned rest of Europe will be turned against us and we will sink slowly in our ship of freedom.

I think we're stuffed either way, but I sort of prefer to be in a gang of bullies than to be the one being bullied, so I've slowly changed my mind and think I will vote to stay in. The world has changed, the world is joined up by big business interests and multi national companies, we can't turn the clock back, individual countries will cease to exist as time goes on.

Could blah on forever etc etc.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240997#Comment_240997 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=240997#Comment_240997 Fri, 20 May 2016 10:54:31 +0100 Simon Still
On the left of politics the supporters of 'out' have a valid criticism of the EU in terms of it's enforcement of free market policies and economic austerity.

However, the other side of that is that Europe has enforced many employment rights that I think are a good thing and that our own Government has usually resisted (http://www.theguardian.com/money/work-blog/2013/jan/24/europe-legacy-uk-workplaces). Additionally Europe's regulations of air and water pollution have pushed our own Government into action where they wouldn't have done otherwise.

Many of those (including the current Government) look to leave Europe as a way to diminish those rights and create a less equal society.

We are a declining nation in an increasingly global world. Being part of a larger trading block seems to have many advantages (America is in some ways similar to a European state).

What finally setttles it for me is those on the leave side. If there's an argument that has Michael Gove, Ian Duncan Smith, Nigel Farage, and Kate Hoey on one side my instinct is that I should be on the other. I leave Boris Johnson out of that list as I don't think he believes in anything except furthering his own career - he'd have been IN if he thought it would be better for him.

I'm in.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241005#Comment_241005 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241005#Comment_241005 Fri, 20 May 2016 13:34:12 +0100 HollyBush
Of course I want to pay less for government
Of course I want better security
Of course I want to control immigration
Of course I want free movement around Europe
Of course I don't want a war
Of course I want democracy
etc

I'm finding it hard to really understand what will actually change either way for example in order to maintain access to the single market:
- will we have to keep our borders open,
- will we have to pay lots to the EU
- will we have to accept certain types of rulings from the EU and implement them
etc
??

I fear the answer is the only real difference is that I have representation through an MEP.

Am I wrong, if so on what level?]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241008#Comment_241008 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241008#Comment_241008 Fri, 20 May 2016 14:38:08 +0100 skyewright Posted By: Simon StillBeing part of a larger trading block seems to have many advantages (America is in some ways similar to a European state).
I couldn't understand why that wasn't brought up when the leave campaign were going on about "the US wouldn't put up with it" a few weeks ago.
They seemed to be missing the point that the US is a federal state, so it was a chalk & cheese comparison.
Are there any US states thinking of leaving their union?

FWIW my current inclination is towards remain, on a similar basis to ideas already expressed by Ed Davies, SteamyTea & dickster among others.

Along with Ed I also feel that, if the UK decides to leave the EU then Scotland (which if seen as a separate unit seems likely to vote remain) will be better off in the EU & out of the UK (even though I was a firm 'No', i.e. remain in the UK, voter in the last referendum). I just wish the Nats would get over the idea of reliance on the 'Oil Fairy'[1], since it is very unlikely to be still capable of leaving presents under pillows in the future...

[1] Not sure if the 'Oil Fairy' concept is something I made that up or if it's something that's been used before & I've forgotten, but allowing that analogies are never perfect it seems to encapsulate how they see oil revenue?]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241010#Comment_241010 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241010#Comment_241010 Fri, 20 May 2016 14:48:51 +0100 owlman We currently have a trade deficit with the rest of the EU. Any talk of Brussels getting tough with the UK in the event of BREXIT is IMO not going to happen, why would it. They wouldn't want to start a tit for tat trade war. Strangely, deficit means a fortuitous twist that gives the UK the whip hand in any re-negotiation, and that re-negotiation could include all of your concerns. We pick and choose which bits we like and ditch the rest.
As for you "Of Course" list the EU has failed on almost all of them, and the ones it hasn't failed on, e.g. "free movement" are a disaster.
As for MEPs they are often toothless when it comes to reform, the faceless backroom crowd hold sway.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241011#Comment_241011 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241011#Comment_241011 Fri, 20 May 2016 14:56:06 +0100 owlman I don't have much regard for the SNP stance on the debate. They are all in favour of leaving the UK. Don't want to be ruled by Westminster etc. etc.. Yet they would happily sign up to be ruled by Brussels. What a load of hypocrites, they are just haters of the English. Does that constitute racism? :angry:]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241012#Comment_241012 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241012#Comment_241012 Fri, 20 May 2016 15:32:45 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: Simon StillI leave Boris Johnson out of that listI am starting to think that he a plant by the Remain campaign.
He is their secret weapon, 'Hey lads, we seem to be behind in the polls. Get Boris to say something'. Works every time.
I like Boris.]]> EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241013#Comment_241013 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241013#Comment_241013 Fri, 20 May 2016 15:35:32 +0100 ringi EU:- in or out? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241014#Comment_241014 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14279&Focus=241014#Comment_241014 Fri, 20 May 2016 16:02:06 +0100 willie.macleod Posted By: SteamyTea
Thinking 'your town' can compete in the UK market on its own, is the same as thinking that the UK can compete with the EU.

Our "town" can. We have the quality products and folk want to buy them because they are the best, not because they are cheap and convenient, they are neither. Our whisky, tweeds etc go to folk with money rather than EU countries, price isn't generally a huge factor to them. Our black puddings are legendary and our seafood is as well. Other stuff we deal with like fish oil, seaweed etc will still be sold - people still need it globally. And our tourism is very hard for anyone to take away. Old stuff and pretty scenery doesn't ship easily.

If the French and Spanish don't want to buy our seafoods then they can eat something else. We could still sell the same volumes closer to home, fewer food miles isn't a bad thing and getting our quotas back would be a massive windfall, allowing us to manage our own shores sustainably. Fishing discards...... that's how the EU listens to our repeated requests for sustainability, look at Norway - it was way back in the 90s that they came out with their ban on discards and active management of fishing areas. Decades of inaction by the EU on a serious environmental matter, only to be spurred into action by a media campaign, not the people at the sharp end complaining. The EU isn't the be all and end all when it comes to green practices, we all should be able to do the right thing and manage our own local areas for ourselves and for our future generations.

Owlman, I know what you mean and agree, don't think the EU wanted us at all though as they made it clear we wouldn't be granted entry till we did penance for a few years then agreed to everything they asked us, not all members of the SNP are taking the official stay in line - Jim Sillars of the old school part of the SNP for one is part of the exit campaign.]]>