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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2014
     
    I'm thinking about using a passive house super insulated slab in a small garden annexe I'm soon to build, as a bit of a trial of the concept and the components. Can anyone tell me where I can buy the various components on-line? The slab will be around 8 x 5 metres.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2014
     
    The design depends on what you intend to put on top of it, so nobody can tell you the components until you tell us the design of the superstructure. There are various competing suppliers of the basic concept, so you also need to make up your mind whether you want to buy a system or invent your own.

    Basically, you need some polystyrene and some concrete and some reinforcement, and probably a DPM and maybe a radon barrier. Oh and some hardcore and some blinding.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2014
     
    I intend to put a timber frame building on top of the system, clad with timber outside, plaster board inside and slate roof. The only thing any of my local suppliers stock is flat sheets of insulation, they don't stock the L shard edges or pre formed corners etc. And when I asked if they had any information about supper insulated foundations all I got was blank looks.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2014
     
    You don't need preformed stuff, just flat sheets. That sounds like a proprietary system.

    How high will finished floor level be above ground level?
  1.  
    ''supper insulated foundations''

    Is this a new form of recycled insulation?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2014
     
    Yeah, well, that's why he got blank looks.

    You could contact VikingHouse - they seem open to supply of materials/design/whatever with a DIY or local builder putting it together. Obviously they're mostly in Ireland but do do projects in the UK but it's not worth their while travelling to obscure corners for single builds. At least that's my impression from a little email exchange I had with Seamus when wondering about switching to a slab.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 30th 2014
     
    Posted By: ShevekYou don't need preformed stuff, just flat sheets.

    How does that work then? Do you have a link to an explanation please?

    I certainly wouldn't have liked to try and do mine without the L-shaped pieces.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014 edited
     
    Ah, I didn't realise it was a specific system. I was just thinking 300 mm of EPS will give you a super insulated slab. Which is what we retrofitted our house with, except that our load-bearing walls are cold bridges.

    In any case there is a way. You use a build-up of ground-bearing slab, insulation then additional slab on top. Floor insulation extends out past top slab to link up with external wall insulation.

    Bit like this, except that the bottom slab would be ground-bearing:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwm0tjj60dcfnm1/detail.pdf?dl=1
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014
     
    Then you've used twice as much concrete and you need to design some mechanism to contain the upper slab while it sets, to connect all the bits together and to stabilise the upper slab. For a house as opposed to a shed you also want something that is insurable and that a BCO will sign off on. Using one of the proprietary systems seems like a no-brainer to me - they're not particularly expensive.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014
     
    Yeah I wasn't suggesting this detail, just that there is a way in certain circumstances. Using this technique saved us from having to dig 2.5 m deep trench foundations (the upper slab was contained with bog standard ply boxing).
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: djhUsing one of the proprietary systems seems like a no-brainer to me - they're not particularly expensive.
    I'm thinking of using if for a garden annexe, but can't find anyone who sells the component parts - L, F and G shapes (the flat EPS boards are stocked locally).

    The latest plan is to construct reinforced concrete dwarf walls using ICF sat on EPS, with EPS under the concrete floor, both of which you can buy off the shelf. The end result will be something akin to what our Irish cousins produce, but without the need for the fancy shapes.
  2.  
    Don't think the parts come in components as such, think you need to cut them from the large EPS cubes.

    Have a look on Seamus's site below at the assembly and cutting patterns downlaods at the bottom.

    http://www.viking-house.ie/passive-house-foundations.html

    You could contact Airpacks who I think is where Viking gets his stuff, there is a link at the top of the webpage to an engineers report and it has the details of Airpacks
  3.  
    Isn't there anywhere in the UK who can supply the edge elements you need?

    Even the "budget" DIY sheds sell it here in Sweden (although budget is a relative term here).

    http://www.byggmax.se/gjutning-och-husgrund/byggsystem

    Probably not much addition to you as the cost of transport in and out of Scandinavia tends to be prohibitive
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconEven the "budget" DIY sheds sell it here in Sweden
    I can't find anyone who sells the pre-formed edge profiles in the Uk, even though they are clearly on sale in big DIY stores across Europe. It's a bit like cellulose insulation, all very specialist and can only be supplied and installed by specialists !:wink:
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014
     
    this works
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014
     
    I can see how its done without special profiles, just using flat sheets and supported with shuttering but its finding a structural engineer to ok it and sign it off, anybody know one in Devon?????
  4.  
    Why not just use the enginner that wrote the paper for Viking House? He is doing the calcs for my MBC/Viking timber frame house and slab at the moment.

    Why do you think the engineer needs to be in Devon? I would give Hilliard (Tanner) a call as he is very familier with the system.

    www.tsd.ie
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2014
     
    Posted By: TriassicI can't find anyone who sells the pre-formed edge profiles in the Uk, even though they are clearly on sale in big DIY stores across Europe. It's a bit like cellulose insulation, all very specialist and can only be supplied and installed by specialists !

    Yes and no. There are multiple systems on offer that differ in detail so that's unlike cellulose in the UK. Some systems, such as the Passive Slab I have that was supplied by Kore can be supplied as materials only. You can install yourself.

    The EPS density and the EPS shapes are cut to the drawings of the engineer who signs off your foundations; Hilliard in my case.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeJul 2nd 2014
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: joe90</cite>anybody know one in Devon</blockquote>

    Any good structural engineer should be able to calc the slab design, the job shown in the my previous post had no outer ring beam, which made for a simple insulation formwork, but relied on 3ply of a393 mesh bottom layer and 2ply of a393 top layer. strong enough to support super structure of 140mm block wall over 2 storeys,

    our engineer was charles taylor of www.monson.co.uk/
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2014
     
    Posted By: an02ewAny good structural engineer should be able to calc the slab design

    This is true, but whether they will is another question! The structural engineer who designed the structure of my house and who is perfectly happy designing 'normal' raft foundations, declined to design the passive slab because he's unfamiliar with suspending a slab on EPS. The unfamiliar area was long-term stability of the EPS under load. Visions of progressive collapse of one side of the house.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2014
     
    my understanding is:

    As a reinforced slab there is limited point loading so limited pressure on any one area.
    The bearing capacity of EPS is very measurable. ei. 70 grade 100 grade etc.etc
    further the slab is bearing on assessed ground bearing condition with a specified amount of stone make up
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2014
     
    Posted By: an02ewmy understanding is:

    As a reinforced slab there is limited point loading so limited pressure on any one area.
    The bearing capacity of EPS is very measurable. ei. 70 grade 100 grade etc.etc
    further the slab is bearing on assessed ground bearing condition with a specified amount of stone make up

    It's not quite that simple. My understanding is that the load from a particular area of the slab still varies (if the south side of the house is heavier for example). The greater load causes greater compression. Add in creep and there is some potential for instabilities. Anyway, the point is that it's not something every engineer is prepared to deal with and that's why I ended up with a different engineer for the foundation and slab design.

    I should make it clear this is not a criticism of my main engineer. He's happy to sign off straw bale houses on a variety of foundations, which is another thing not all engineers will do. Horses for courses.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2014
     
    Agreed.

    i have used both ground bearing and non ground bearing insulated slab in the past and the ground bearing version was by far the simpler to construct, i was also lucky enough not only to have an engineer happy to design it but also to explain the principals of distrubuting the load through re-infocment and he convinced me of the reliability of EPS when put under the minimal spread out loadings,
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