Green Building Forum - Kitchen lighting Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:56:28 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296580#Comment_296580 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296580#Comment_296580 Sun, 26 Jun 2022 20:36:29 +0100 djh
But today I noticed that three of the units have died. I haven't investigated yet but I suppose it will be the tubes and I'll be able to replace them from spares. It set me thinking though about my long-term options. I gather ( https://www.auralight.com/en/applications/applications/industry-light/t8-phase-out ) that T5 tubes will be phased out next year and they've become increasingly difficult to source over the years. LEDs have improved to the point where they're about competitive with T5 tubes so I'll probably replace the kitchen lights with a LED scheme. The rest of the house is lit with GU10 LED lamps (5W Crompton) in wall and ceiling surface-mounted fittings.

I'm not sure what to get for the kitchen, so I thought I'd ask for people's ideas and opinions here. I don't like downlights, and the typical triple 5W GU10 fittings elsewhere feel like a bit of a bodge if I fitted them in the kitchen. So what products are there out there that are worth looking at? I do like the idea that the lamps are replaceable within the fittings. I don't especially want to have to do major surgery on the ceiling!]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296593#Comment_296593 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296593#Comment_296593 Mon, 27 Jun 2022 11:40:04 +0100 djh Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296597#Comment_296597 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296597#Comment_296597 Mon, 27 Jun 2022 12:28:03 +0100 owlman
This is type of thing I imagine:-

https://www.weverducre.com/en/products/c/track-lights~23482?page=2]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296607#Comment_296607 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296607#Comment_296607 Mon, 27 Jun 2022 21:19:14 +0100 djh
I'd been wondering about putting something on top of the cupboards and bouncing the light off the ceiling ?]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296611#Comment_296611 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296611#Comment_296611 Mon, 27 Jun 2022 22:23:27 +0100 WillInAberdeen
If we did it again we'd use RGB LED tape so we could change the colour temperature at different times of day (warm white while eating, cool white in the daytime, flashing disco colours only when the kids are allowed to access the programmer!). It would also work stuck on the tops of the cupboards bouncing off the ceiling, might add several runs to get enough lumens.

The LED tape in the kitchen has been faultless but another batch elsewhere in the house has some failed 'pixels' - both batches off ebay.

(Edit - hide it behind pelmets etc, or use diffusers, it's not pretty to look directly at)

GU10 downlighters are good in kitchens where the surfaces you want to illuminate are all horizontal - worksurfaces and floors. Some separate ambient uplighting is pleasant if you also eat in there.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296622#Comment_296622 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296622#Comment_296622 Tue, 28 Jun 2022 10:12:51 +0100 revor Posted By: djhI don't like downlights,

What is it about downlight you don't like . We have them throughout the house different colour temp for different areas and in big rooms ganged to give us different switching and illumination options. Very unobtrusive fit flush to the sealing and do not gather dust. We get 700lm/ for 7w may even be better now they keep getting more efficient.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296632#Comment_296632 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296632#Comment_296632 Tue, 28 Jun 2022 12:56:32 +0100 Dominic Cooney Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296637#Comment_296637 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296637#Comment_296637 Tue, 28 Jun 2022 20:18:41 +0100 djh Posted By: Dominic CooneyCan you just replace your tubes with LED tubes? They usually come with an LED starter to replace the Flourescent Starter in the fitting. I have done this with a couple in the house when they failed, actually the ones that are under the kitchen wall units (they were already there). Changed them to daylight colour too!I don't think T5 LED tubes are available? There's no starter in T5 (or T4) units - they use electronic ballasts. I think I could replace the units with roughly equivalent T8 LED-tube units but if I'm replacing the units I might as well consider other possibilities.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296638#Comment_296638 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296638#Comment_296638 Tue, 28 Jun 2022 20:22:46 +0100 djh Posted By: revorWhat is it about downlight you don't like. Partly it's just what I consider to be a messy look with lots of lights everywhere. There's the lots of holes too, with possible consequences for acoustic and fire insulation. No airtightness worries because it's the ground floor ceiling thankfully. In our case now it would also be quite a lot of hassle to get power to all the downlights. But that's just my opinion, yours is obviously different :)]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296643#Comment_296643 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296643#Comment_296643 Wed, 29 Jun 2022 11:30:23 +0100 Simon Still Posted By: WillInAberdeenWe stuck selfadhesive LED tape to the underside of all the high-level kitchen cupboards, which is great for task lighting.

If we did it again we'd use RGB LED tape so we could change the colour temperature at different times of day (warm white while eating, cool white in the daytime, flashing disco colours only when the kids are allowed to access the programmer!). It would also work stuck on the tops of the cupboards bouncing off the ceiling, might add several runs to get enough lumens.

The LED tape in the kitchen has been faultless but another batch elsewhere in the house has some failed 'pixels' - both batches off ebay.


Personally I think the only place RGB lighting has a place is the garden.... You can buy 'dual white' LED tape which has two different colours of white LED on it and you can light either circuit. white colour temp from RGB tape is never that accurate and if theres anywhere you can see it or see it reflected you can pick out the diffent colour leds which is why there is also RGBW tape which has a separate white LED used when you want white rather than trying to blend the RGB


re bulbs vs fittings. Natural inclination is always to go for replaceable 'bulbs' BUT my experience has been that good quality LED fittings really do have a very long life, whereas I've had to replace numerous LED bulbs over the years (especially GU10's) regardless of the brand/quality. I'm sure the issue is overheating - either of the LEDs or the driver which has to be miniturised and packed into a 'bad' space in a bulb.

Also suspect that drivers are less reliable than the LED chips themselves in most cases so finings where they are separate would likely have a longer life. And even if LEDs do fail in a fitting you *can* replace them - I found some bargain high quality Edison screw bulb garden lights and modified them to run sections of LED tape instead of a bulb.

Ikea's LED light strips and panels are well worth looking at - the larger panels give a really nice diffuse light (eg https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/floalt-led-light-panel-dimmable-white-spectrum-40436316/). Though the 'last chance to buy' on some of the fittings suggests they're just about to launch a new range.

You can use all their drivers/wireless smart home stuff/switches etc but none of the electronics are in the lights themselves and they're all just running 24v (better than 12v if you want remotely located drivers) so you just cut off the plug on the trailing cable and connect to whatever driver you want to use.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296647#Comment_296647 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296647#Comment_296647 Wed, 29 Jun 2022 17:29:45 +0100 djh Posted By: Simon StillPersonally I think the only place RGB lighting has a place is the garden.... You can buy 'dual white' LED tape which has two different colours of white LED on it and you can light either circuit. white colour temp from RGB tape is never that accurate and if theres anywhere you can see it or see it reflected you can pick out the diffent colour leds which is why there is also RGBW tape which has a separate white LED used when you want white rather than trying to blend the RGBI agree about the RGB. Back in the day I used to have lots of coloured lights for parties but those days and lights are long gone! Though there are the Xmas tree lights :)

I just replaced a fitting in the downstairs shower room. It was a 2-D fluorescent fitting and the lamp failed. I bought a replacement lamp from Screwfix but that was DOA, so I decided to go for a GU10 LED fitting like those in the other shower rooms. I bought one from Amazon but the quality was appalling so I sent that back and got another from John Lewis where I bought the existing ones. It came with three 3000K GU10 lamps so I put those in. The first thing SWMBO said when she saw it was "What a horrible colour. It's so yellow" But I persuaded her to leave it for now.

I've never really looked into LED tapes. It always seems like they would need a neatness I don't usually bring to DIY. :(

re bulbs vs fittings. Natural inclination is always to go for replaceable 'bulbs' BUT my experience has been that good quality LED fittings really do have a very long life, whereas I've had to replace numerous LED bulbs over the years (especially GU10's) regardless of the brand/quality. I'm sure the issue is overheating - either of the LEDs or the driver which has to be miniturised and packed into a 'bad' space in a bulb.
When I bought the fittings for our house I decided on LED GU10s as representing a reasonably safe path forward. I bought a load of lamps and tested them principally for the light quality - a surprising number had blue and yellow regions visible in the output. I chose Crompton as the apparent best and bought 50. That was in 2015 and none have failed yet. Most are in open fittings, because I was worried about heat as a life-shortening factor too, but the 'wet' rooms got the IP44 enclosed units I mentioned. A few places got (T5 or CFL) fluorescents and I've had to replace those tubes a few times but they're getting more difficult to buy. edit to add: I just bought some more of the same GU10s at a very reasonable price so I'm happy with my decision.

Also suspect that drivers are less reliable than the LED chips themselves in most cases so finings where they are separate would likely have a longer life. And even if LEDs do fail in a fitting you *can* replace them - I found some bargain high quality Edison screw bulb garden lights and modified them to run sections of LED tape instead of a bulb.
That's interesting to know. I don't have any failures to confirm it unfortunately :) You've set me wondering about removing the innards of the T5 fittings and putting some LED tape inside and drivers either inside the units or in the ceiling above. You can just see a blanking plate between the two lights near the window in my photo - those are where the wiring is terminated.

Ikea's LED light strips and panels are well worth looking at - the larger panels give a really nice diffuse light (eg https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/floalt-led-light-panel-dimmable-white-spectrum-40436316/). Though the 'last chance to buy' on some of the fittings suggests they're just about to launch a new range.

You can use all their drivers/wireless smart home stuff/switches etc but none of the electronics are in the lights themselves and they're all just running 24v (better than 12v if you want remotely located drivers) so you just cut off the plug on the trailing cable and connect to whatever driver you want to use.
Thanks, that's an idea I'll definitely look at. :)

edit: I just looked at the product you linked. It says lumens 2200 power 29 W. 76 lm/W. The T5 tubes are 91 lm/W !?]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296649#Comment_296649 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296649#Comment_296649 Wed, 29 Jun 2022 18:11:03 +0100 LF I think the idea is to fit LED tube as a bulb and simply take out the guts/starter that drive the florescent.
I would not be adding LED tape inside the fitting - potential for glue failing etc.

I did this to a 2D bathroom fitting - so you maintain bulb holder etc. Wago terminals help here. Heat not so much an issue with the wiring with LED as wattage lower but you need to think about it inside a light fitting.

Florescent were a very low power option for lighting but the attached claims LED can save more than 45% per lumen with LEDs and get a much longer life bulb that maintains output.
https://www.lampshoponline.com/advice/best-led-t8-tubes-retrofit

Re the downlighter discussion. I agree about cutting holes in plasterboard reducing fire rating/acoustics/air tightness of ceiling and still cannot believe the companies selling halogen lights with so little advice on how to fit them and damage they causing. I was deeply mentally scared by this after putting loads in 19 years ago when we refurbished/extended. I have quite a few small MR11 12 V sized ones still working very well now on LEDS after many years of trials to replace halogens with the same crisp light.

Our kitchen florescent had a plastic casing that was cracked and we replaced with Sylvania type screwfix jobby
https://www.sylvania-lighting.com/product/en-int/products/0043265/
Simple to clean fittings/unfussy units for the kitchen and bathroom. I have one in my office that I am sure has an internal switch between warm white and daylight/blue white that you may be able to have fun with the management ;)]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296657#Comment_296657 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296657#Comment_296657 Wed, 29 Jun 2022 23:20:17 +0100 WillInAberdeen
We have ~ 2000 lumens of lighting in our kitchen in total, half each ambient and task lighting. DJH it sounds like you need more intense lighting, check whether you can fit in enough runs, if doing it with led tape, and meaty enough drivers?]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296782#Comment_296782 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296782#Comment_296782 Thu, 14 Jul 2022 08:12:31 +0100 LF
I am on with updating my garage workshop utility lighting which has 4 off 4 ft florescent each with a Sylvania T5 traditional florescent tubes at 34 W each . So 136 W of power but very bright - 1 is in roof space/loft .3 off cover Floor area 4 x 6 m roughly.
(Sylvania luxline plus F36W / 840 - looks like 3350 lumens rating 4000 K - not too white/cold a light ~£5/tube)

I have tried some Amazon 20 W thin strip lights 4ft also - supposedly 2000 lumens and no where near a single one of the above, I was hoping it would be equivalent. I then tried 2 led versus one and thought the traditional was best easily.
Coming to conclusion, I can rejig what I have as no power saving likely. I measured its power at dead on 20W. "(Pack of 8) Barrina LED T5 Integrated Single Fixture, 4FT, 2200lm, 6500K (Super Bright White), 20W, Utility Shop Light, Ceiling and Under Cabinet Light, Hardwired"

I am sending LED ones back. I will add more switches in and save power by having low power option with not all of them on. I have only done 1 set of tube changes in 20 years of having the space, that was some years back.

DJH Maybe you can try a new tube in florescant as they do degrade gradually over time ?]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296788#Comment_296788 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296788#Comment_296788 Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:06:08 +0100 djh Posted By: LFDJH - how is your lighting going ? I am not convinced LED as much better at Lumens /Watt or that directional nature of LED (WinA) gives better light from doing some rough trials. I am going to stay traditional !Yes, that was why we originally went fluorescent. T5 tubes had better lumens/watt than the LEDs then and are still better than a lot of LEDs now. Plus the tubes gives a distributed light source with less shadows. I understand the directional nature of LEDs but the reflector mounts in the fittings do help somewhat with the tubes.

But to answer your question - I'm still thinking about my next step. The Sylvania tubes are a good brand. I generally go for the HE ones rather than the HO. They are getting harder to find though.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296806#Comment_296806 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296806#Comment_296806 Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:19:24 +0100 WillInAberdeen
We have general lighting from LED ceiling lights, typically 100-200 lumens per sq m of floor area. And much more concentrated LED task lighting mounted close above worktops, desks, sinks, reading chairs, etc, which is only switched on whilst they are in use. The idea is to brightly illuminate only the square metre that we are working on, not the whole of the floor area of the room.

Might be a matter of individual taste TBF, but could there be an option to reduce wattage by using lower-power tubes for general lighting and then add some concentrated light onto particular work surfaces?

We have some wireless switches which are good for switching individual lights on as needed, even where there are several lights hard-wired together to the switch by the door, no need for disruption to change the switch wiring.

I found the lumen ratings quoted on listings on Amazon/eBay etc are usually lies. Have to buy a few different lamps and try them out to find the bright ones, or go with big name brands.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296811#Comment_296811 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296811#Comment_296811 Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:37:11 +0100 djh Posted By: WillInAberdeen4 off lamps at 3350 lm each, is 13400 lm - I think that's more lighting than the entire ground floor of our house!Workshops and garages can need quite bright lighting at times. And it can be difficult to say exactly where the light is going to be needed. Trailing inspection lamps around is not always convenient.

I think we had the discussion about kitchen lamp brightness before, and agreed to differ. Cooking dinner can mean being anywhere in the room and somewhere else the next moment. And for me, my eyes don't get any better every year.

I found the lumen ratings quoted on listings on Amazon/eBay etc are usually lies. Have to buy a few different lamps and try them out to find the bright ones, or go with big name brands.
Yes, and not just the lumens. The CRI of some LEDs is absolutely appalling. So I generally go for either Sylvania (mostly for fluorescent) or Crompton (mostly for LEDs). The reliability also seems to be pretty good, as well as the specs being true. Not one Crompton has failed in over seven years to date.]]> Kitchen lighting http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296812#Comment_296812 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17501&Focus=296812#Comment_296812 Fri, 15 Jul 2022 18:21:46 +0100 LF It needs to be bright in the daytime sometimes that takes more lumens to be effective!

I have plumped for a 30 W motion sensor and daylight sensor (outdoor spotlight jobby) as main light - handsfree.
Main reason is when there is more than 1 switch some members of the house hit all 3! and then the kids leave them on. I like your idea of wireless switches for turning off some of the lights and making it less confusing when hit with the option of all 3 switches.

I have task light by my bench in terms of a 20 W LED rechargable worklight.

Our normal lights in each room are low power - low lumen. We do tend to have a high powered option though as main light when you just need to be able to see clearly - not used often. I generally hate them as they wake me up at night too much, unlike my dearest darling who seems immune to effect of light. She is not a candle person...

We have some 1 W Osram 69 lumen rechargeable USB lights with night and motion sensor around the house for nighttime wanderings. They are great for not "clicking" and offer just enough light for going to the loo and not falling over our black dog.

For working outside and the like, I have been amazed by these modern head torches last winter.
Transform the need for light everywhere but everything is well lit when you look at it. USB rechargable.
You waft your hand near it to turn it off so you do not dazzle those who come too close. Incredible.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09JZ4Q52N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1]]>