I am sure that we have discussed this before

I think that using batteries to store energy increases total energy demand, exactly the opposite if the intention, as batteries are less than 100% efficient.

Thoughts

It depends if your priority is to reduce energy usage, or to reduce fossil fuel usage - as your question hints these are not always the same thing.

You also need to consider the wider system and look at the alternatives (akin to a life cycle analysis i.e. where you draw the boundary can get you very different answers).

So a more specific question might be: Are we better off storing uk renewables locally or creating high capacity grid spanning Europe's renewables (and beyond) to even our the lulls?

Either way if you can use a battery that needs charging anyway that should be a clear win - i.e. if you have a electric car and discretion on when and how fully to charge it.

Posted By: tonyI don't think that there is any case for storing any renewable energy yet as we do not have a surplus of it

There's clearly at least a minimal case of ensuring that when we do need it, the technology is ready.

Not that I buy the case that we don't need it yet, given the other arguments advanced. Specifically peak management and that includes the time mismatch between solar generation and peak demand.

That is local network capacity capacity issue (likely cable or transformer related) and a result of belt and braces worst case scenario calculations where all the neighbours are away on holiday and left everything switched off.


Peak demand talk is another discussion.

So far we have agreed that storage increases overall energy demand

There are alternative ways of managing the demand other than by using storage, most of these are cheap or even free eg switching things off, in these days of internet connectivity and electronic control this can happen virtually instantly, certainly as fast as bringing online the storage that we have. There is a cost associated with storage, new storage is VERY expensive compared with switching off.

it will come soon if it is not here already.

I don't have battery storage but I do think it has a role to play in management of the grid but it does need to be down intelligently ( using smart metering and software)

Anyone on Octopus Agile tariff will know that the rates per kWh vary throughout the day as demand fluctuates.
At times rates are very low, just 1 or 2 per kWh and very occasionally they are negative. This is because the nuclear and wind power are greater than demand and they have to offload power to balance the grid.

Peak demand occurs at 4 - 7 in the evening when and the carbon intensity of electricity is at its peak and there is a surplus often when carbon intensity is lowest, therefore storing some and using during the peak demand would be effective.

I just don't think we have the tools available to manage this intelligently yet at a micro level.

I think any smart energy management features will need to be integrated into appliances. If I plug our washing machine into a smart plug and it gets switched off remotely, then it will loose its program and the washing wont get done. Very shortly after, the washing manager will just remove the smart plug! Neither I nor the wife would want to open the fridge at tea time to find the light off and the unit warming up.

Without some draconian changes, I suspect we're a decade or more away from sizeable domestic user peak power management.

I was always think that the absence of legislation to make water meters compulsory is an excellent illustration of just how far the goverment will go to achieve sustainability (NOT).

Posted By: JecopWhile there is no surplus on a macro-scale, regulations and other limitations can create local surpluses. E.g. UK PowerNetworks requires me to restrict the feed-in from my system to 3.68kW. As my system has a peak capacity of 9.2 kW, I have to either derate, or store locally in batteries for overnight use

Posted By: tonyThat is local network capacity capacity issue (likely cable or transformer related) and a result of belt and braces worst case scenario calculations where all the neighbours are away on holiday and left everything switched off.


Peak demand talk is another discussion.

There are systems in use at a small number of sites, and under test for wider network use to reduce the output at renewable energy farms. This is to actively manage the network when too much power is in or about to be in the network. Sometimes this is a very local issue, but dumping the power to a battery would be a better option than preventing suppliers supplying if they are from a renewable source.

This scenario is already here.

As more and more renewable sources come on line, then batteries will become cost effective.

I also agree with another post about wider storage. Pumped storage Hydro is exactly that.

(edited to remove a couple of typos)

All the energy would finish up as heat anyway - so no

I would still do it though.

Solar lights are getting very much better and cheaper,even the ones with pir's

Posted By: philedgeThe problem with the first world transiting to EVs and grid battery storage is that its likely to make a very big mess somewhere, just to allow the first world to continue with business as usual from an energy consumption perspective.

+1
And give them a warm feeling whilst doing so

Total demand and total production is managed extremely well by the national grid. These always match

Peak demand is generally always supplied by our existing supplies, on occasion we import from the continent,

When demand spikes unexpectedly stored hydro is used to manage the gap while other fixed generators ramp up. The amount of energy that is stored is infinitesimally small but does help for a few minutes, it can’t supply high power to the grid for anything like hours.

The inefficiencies of this storage is accepted as it presently offers an historically very necessary facility the the grid managers but I can see it being phased out over the coming decades

There is almost nothing smart going on domestically yet, so called smart meters don’t do anything smart (like managing use)

For me storage is inherently inefficient and we shouldn’t use it. If there is a surplus of energy on the grid we should use it as mentioned above. The possibility of of saving fossil fuel that would otherwise be used to generate the electricity that is being stored provides us with the opportunity to reduce the total amount of energy needed.

Moving forward we as a nation need to continue to reduce the total amount of energy we use.

Posted By: tonyI am sure that we have discussed this before

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16225

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/27/uk-renewables-outperform-gas-for-first-quarter-ever/

"New figures from the UK Government published just before Christmas showed that renewable energy generation across the country generated a record quarterly amount of electricity between July and September, outperforming natural gas for the first time ever.

"... in the third quarter of 2019 renewable energy sources provided a record 38.9% of the country’s electricity — exceeding natural gas for the first time ever, which provided 38.8%."

Posted By: tonyTotal demand and total production is managed extremely well by the national grid. These always match

Not as simply - and only by careful management, it is very hard to balance especially when lightning strikes - Active Network Management is in use by several DNOs and supported by National Grid. As more renewable energy generators come on line, then more of this responsibility falls to the DNO, and not National Grid. Batteries are an important part of this and their use will also grow.

I am not aware of anything that is 100% efficient as far as electricity is concerned. Distribution, conversion to the type of thing you want (heat, light etc)

I just don't see how we can move to fully renewable without batteries of one form or another. Reducing demand want make batteries go away. we need them locally (same region) when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.

Or is there a scenario that doesn't need those too, that I have not considered? (Nuclear, Fission?)