Green Building Forum - Just say “No” to the cloud Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:09:16 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230518#Comment_230518 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230518#Comment_230518 Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:21:46 +0100 Ed Davies
http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/130875724381/the-pain-of-the-cloud-solutions-saying-no-to-the

“The pain of the cloud solutions. Saying NO to the clouds!

Customer A: I have used the Ubiquiti mFi solution in the past. But the mFi cloud has crashed and has been down for many months now, without any support from UBNT. Can you support me as a supplier of the hardware?

Customer B: I have used the Involar SEDAS system for monitoring of my solar installation. Now the SEDAS is not working reliably. What will you do for me?

Answer: Well, we need to say honestly and openly: We will do nothing for you.

Any cloud service or software support is a matter of the manufacturer of the equipment you have decided to buy. If the manufacturer has a problem keeping the service functional, we as „the middle-man” have no ability to do anything for you. We as a distributor are not responsible in any way for these solutions and services. We suggest you keep contacting the manufacturer, you keep complaining publicly at discussion forums, blogs and web page comments. This may be only way to push the manufacturer to some action.

Having been in the IT business since 1970’s, we can only say: The cloud is just a dream. What you have is what you have. We discourage customers to make solutions that rely on the clouds and dreams.

Just think: In case of an international conflict you can be 100% sure, your data stored in an enemy country will not be available to you. So do not waste any time with the cloud and on-line systems (Google Apps, Office 365, etc), work on solutions that will be 100% in your own possession.”]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230519#Comment_230519 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230519#Comment_230519 Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:28:54 +0100 SteamyTea Thankfully it allowed POP3 and IMAP, so I had a local copy off all my emails.

I use the cloud to save copies and things I want to share, but always have local copies.
And anything important I put up there, I encrypt first. I have also started to use stenography on my pictures for traceability/copyright purposes. It is so easy to do. Just wish encrypting emails was as simple. Should be easy to do using the TOR network, but no one seems to have come up with a system that is easy and painless to use.
I live in hope.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230521#Comment_230521 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230521#Comment_230521 Sat, 10 Oct 2015 22:38:59 +0100 Jeff B
OK, I know my emails are out there somewhere, probably being monitored by GCHQ as we speak (along with all my Internet connections) but I wish them luck with that, ploughing through hundreds of nerdy websites like the Green Building Forum, DIYnot etc! (No offence intended guys).]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230524#Comment_230524 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230524#Comment_230524 Sun, 11 Oct 2015 06:19:09 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: Jeff Bprobably being monitored by GCHQ
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/25/trillions_in_surveillance_gchq/

It is a great statistics problem to find out what is being sent to whom.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230538#Comment_230538 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230538#Comment_230538 Sun, 11 Oct 2015 12:37:19 +0100 Andrew_Doran
On that note a friend and colleague made a marvelous suggestion to me: anywhere you see "the cloud" in print, read it as "someone else's computer".

* http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit/]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230553#Comment_230553 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230553#Comment_230553 Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:15:27 +0100 gravelld Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230603#Comment_230603 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230603#Comment_230603 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:51:32 +0100 haplessDiyer Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230607#Comment_230607 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230607#Comment_230607 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:20:21 +0100 gravelld
For storage, you pay for immediate access, if you want cold storage you can also get that.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230608#Comment_230608 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230608#Comment_230608 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:32:11 +0100 SteamyTea
There are a number of issues when backing up, is it the only backup, or a copy, or one of many.
The real issue is why do we collect and save so much. I never delete a picture, no matter how bad. I now have several backup disks going back the last 20 years or so.
I think my last one was a 3 TB one and has most of my stuff on it, but I keep the old ones 'just in case'.
Be no good if my house was burgles or burnt down, but I am sure I would get over it.

Cloud storage for me is not a good option as my connection is way to slow, uploading at 1 mbs (0.125 of a megabyte per second) it takes 40 seconds to upload 1 picture, and I have thousands.

To do a proper incremental back up of the HD on my laptop would initially take over 200 hours.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230609#Comment_230609 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230609#Comment_230609 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:08:17 +0100 gravelld Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230615#Comment_230615 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230615#Comment_230615 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:15:08 +0100 gyrogear http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32816775
The heat produced by powering the server is then utilized as home-heating, so there is an actual benefit...

gg]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230616#Comment_230616 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230616#Comment_230616 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:17:04 +0100 gravelld Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230617#Comment_230617 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230617#Comment_230617 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 22:21:07 +0100 gyrogear (I was working from memory)
(so to speak...)

gg]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230620#Comment_230620 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230620#Comment_230620 Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:34:23 +0100 Jeff Norton (NZ) Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230625#Comment_230625 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230625#Comment_230625 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:00:14 +0100 SteamyTea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_fire

The building I used to work in was shared with the NHS payroll company. I think it took a week to get the systems up and running again after the explosion.
Somewhere I have pictures of the racks all bent and twisted, in the bent and twisted buildings.
They had off site storage.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230626#Comment_230626 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230626#Comment_230626 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:39:21 +0100 Ed Davies Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230627#Comment_230627 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230627#Comment_230627 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:12:05 +0100 gravelld Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230630#Comment_230630 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230630#Comment_230630 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:59:15 +0100 djh Posted By: Ed DaviesThe problem is micro-inverters and the like when you buy the things with, in theory, indefinite logging via their website or whatever. Then they go into administration and you're stuck. If it's a published protocol and you can configure the domain name or IP address so a substitute service can be implemented reasonably easily (it's happened) then it's not so bad. Whatever, it's something to think about when you buy these toys.
Indeed, although the major offenders are far more prosaic - banks and utility companies with their 'paperless service'.

In the case of my micro inverters, I guess they're now breaking the law, since they transmit the data to the US and the web page includes personal details. The protocol they use is private but fortunately is insecure and has been hacked, so if they do go t*ts*p I should be able to capture the data. In the meantime, I download it as a CSV, although it's not really as detailed as I would like.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230631#Comment_230631 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230631#Comment_230631 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:01:20 +0100 skyewright Posted By: SteamyTeaI used to live near Buncefield:
The building I used to work in was shared with the NHS payroll company. I think it took a week to get the systems up and running again after the explosion.
Somewhere I have pictures of the racks all bent and twisted, in the bent and twisted buildings.
They had off site storage.
If that's who I think it is[1], then it was more than just off site storage, They were/are a business that specialise in facilities/data management & resilience, so the fact that their own premises survived such an incident was quite a demonstration of their systems & that they practice what they preach.

[1] Pretty sure. A close relative used to work for them.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230647#Comment_230647 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230647#Comment_230647 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:19:00 +0100 SteamyTea Was quite a bang I believe and considering it only took a week to get it sort is really quite amazing.

But I bet they charge more than ADrive, Google Drive, Dropbox or whatever MS call their service now.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230650#Comment_230650 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230650#Comment_230650 Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:54:13 +0100 skyewright Posted By: SteamyTeawe have had this conversation before
I thought we had...

But I bet they charge more than ADrive, Google Drive, Dropbox or whatever MS call their service now.

Err, yes. Quite a bit more than that! Sometimes the adage "pay peanuts, get monkeys" runs true...]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230934#Comment_230934 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=230934#Comment_230934 Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:35:57 +0100 gravelld https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cloud-to-butt-plus/apmlngnhgbnjpajelfkmabhkfapgnoai?hl=en]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238522#Comment_238522 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238522#Comment_238522 Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:34:59 +0100 Ed Davies
https://medium.com/@arlogilbert/the-time-that-tony-fadell-sold-me-a-container-of-hummus-cb0941c762c1#.pmyeyn5pw

Unfortunately, that article doesn't make clear if they're just turning off the cloud service the box relies on or will actually send some command to really brick the box. Ie., if anybody had reverse engineered the protocol and built a substitute service, would it work?]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238524#Comment_238524 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238524#Comment_238524 Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:04:13 +0100 djh
Under UK/EU law would Arlo Gilbert have a right to a refund since the product is clearly not fit for purpose after 15 May?]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238558#Comment_238558 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238558#Comment_238558 Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:59:03 +0100 Ed Davies
I bought a Kobo ebook reader largely on the basis that I'd read that they don't need to be registered to be used - you can download PDFs, etc, via USB. I was therefore more than a little cheesed off to find that it actually does need to be registered (must have changed since previous models/versions) and won't work after a hard reset until it's contacted the mothership. If Kobo goes broke I'll have to be careful to make sure it doesn't need a reset.

In general, avoiding dependency on web services seems safest. Ie., you're a mug if you buy something which depends on ongoing support from somebody else without a pretty solid contract that that support will be available for a useful amount of time.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238559#Comment_238559 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238559#Comment_238559 Tue, 05 Apr 2016 18:06:26 +0100 skyewright Posted By: djhDoes google still spout "Don't be evil"?

Under UK/EU law would Arlo Gilbert have a right to a refund since the product is clearly not fit for purpose after 15 May?
Also, the page mentions that all one year guarantees have expired. I have a vague feeling that under EU/UK consumer protection two years is expected nowadays?]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238566#Comment_238566 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238566#Comment_238566 Tue, 05 Apr 2016 20:44:53 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238576#Comment_238576 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238576#Comment_238576 Wed, 06 Apr 2016 07:43:50 +0100 SteamyTea https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/05/revolv-devices-bricked-google-nest-smart-home

This seems very poor service.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238578#Comment_238578 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238578#Comment_238578 Wed, 06 Apr 2016 09:01:26 +0100 MarkyP
But for this hardware situation, I am surprised both by the apparent aggressiveness and that no concession is offered to affected customers such as a heavily discounted replacement Nest unit. Perhaps there is more to the story - some reasons why they cannot afford or have chosen not to offer a 2 year end of life period. Google is vast and all gigantic corps, no matter how they try to craft their public profile and culture, are prone to ineptitude, clumsiness and crass stupidity. Whatever the reason, it is a PR blunder for both Nest and Google.]]> Just say “No” to the cloud http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238581#Comment_238581 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13711&Focus=238581#Comment_238581 Wed, 06 Apr 2016 09:41:08 +0100 Simon Still Posted By: MarkyP...But you'd likely still have working software (unless the software called back to some vendor platform, and that was to stop at end of life).

But for this hardware situation, I am surprised both by the apparent aggressiveness and that no concession is offered ... Google is vast and all gigantic corps, no matter how they try to craft their public profile and culture, are prone to ineptitude, clumsiness and crass stupidity. Whatever the reason, it is a PR blunder for both Nest and Google.

Absolutely - this is completely unacceptable as it's not the model that the hardware was sold on.

If you're buying a managed service, with an annual charge, then you have to accept that service could come to an end (but you'd still expect a managed end of life process). It's normally clear that the hardware is not yours in those situations - think UK Cable TV. The box belongs to Virgin, if you stop paying the monthly service charge you have to give the box back. If Virgin shut down you'd not expect the box to do much (if anything).

If you're buying hardware outright you don't expect it to be 100% reliant on a external software. With Sky you own the box after a year. I think you'd accept that Sky might cease support for advanced functions (maybe the iPhone app would disappear one day) but you'd expect it to keep running basic functions to watch TV.

This just seems such a massive PR blunder for Google - they could easily afford to have given all of the customers a refund, a free (or discounted) Nest equivalent or something. They could have/should have open sourced the software - Logitech stopped selling their Squeezebox (Sonos equivalent) hardware a couple of years ago but you can still get the server software from their site and development continues under open source.

Tivo stopped support for their original UK boxes (sold for a brief period in around 2000) in June 2011. There was a c6 month warning and 9 months of free service before it happened. There appears to be an independent EPG project that means they still run.

http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/tivo-withdrawing-support-of-series1-uk-pvrs-929093
http://www.tivoland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1739

Bricking the hardware remotely is unbelievable.]]>