Green Building Forum - "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:40:22 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299839#Comment_299839 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299839#Comment_299839 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 10:17:10 +0000 fostertom
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-electric-vehicles-lithium-consequences-research

"The US’s transition to electric vehicles could require three times as much lithium as is currently produced for the entire global market, causing needless water shortages, Indigenous land grabs, and ecosystem destruction inside and outside its borders"
(quadruple that for Europe, and 'rest of world'). But by ...

"... changing the way we get around towns and cities – fewer cars, more walking, cycling and public transit made possible by denser cities – followed by downsizing vehicles and recycling batteries ... the lithium demand would be 92% lower"

Incredible that battery recycling is not already !00%, so that proper recycling is the third most important measure that's missing.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299846#Comment_299846 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299846#Comment_299846 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 13:19:02 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299852#Comment_299852 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299852#Comment_299852 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:30:44 +0000 fostertom "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299854#Comment_299854 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299854#Comment_299854 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 15:12:54 +0000 WillInAberdeen
"a rollout [of battery storage of renewable electricity ] would in fact hugely reduce extraction from the earth by ending fossil fuel exploitation: “The total amount of mining that’s going to be needed for wind, water, solar, compared to [the] fossil fuel system, is much less than 1% in terms of the mass of materials.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/23/no-miracles-needed-prof-mark-jacobson-on-how-wind-sun-and-water-can-power-the-world

"predicting more than 50% of Europe’s refined lithium demand can come from European projects by 2030... planned EU legislation on critical raw materials is designed to ensure they meet high environmental standards."
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/24/eu-could-end-reliance-on-china-electric-car-batteries-by-2030-investment-joe-biden-369bn-green-subsidies


Seems that different stories are written for the UK and US editions, and the level of sensationalism is tailored to the positions of their respective audiences.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299855#Comment_299855 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299855#Comment_299855 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 16:13:24 +0000 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeenin terms of the mass of materialstonnage of pure-deposit coal and oil to keep fossil world-energy going, vs tonnage of lo-grade ore of lithium to store world's electricity - what sleight of hand! It's a staggeringly large new lithium-ore quarry anyway. Reduce that by 92%, as the second article hopes, then maybe.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299856#Comment_299856 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299856#Comment_299856 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 16:39:31 +0000 WillInAberdeen
I can't tell which of those two contradictory positions is correct - probably neither of them!]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299858#Comment_299858 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299858#Comment_299858 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 19:36:58 +0000 Jonti
Electric cars may have less running emissions but are they really good for the environment when looked at on a whole life perspective?

The other thing is needs a change in lifestyle from the population as a whole to one that requires much less motorised transport.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299861#Comment_299861 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299861#Comment_299861 Tue, 24 Jan 2023 21:02:56 +0000 djh Posted By: JontiIt needs an environmentally responsible public transport organised by national government and paid for through taxation.The problem I have with that idea is the notion that 'they' are going to come up with sufficient public transport in my area (we don't have any at all now) to make not having a car practicable. So all local trips to the shops etc plus longer trips to nearby towns and to visit friends and at hours that are suitable. Unless I'm convinced of that, I won't be very happy to pay more taxes towards the scheme. Maybe people who live in cities and towns can be persuaded more easily.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299870#Comment_299870 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299870#Comment_299870 Wed, 25 Jan 2023 08:38:58 +0000 Jonti
I agree completely and I don't think there is either the political will nor the political/practical foresight. We have a 'ruling/political elite who are incapable of understanding how the world really works for the vast majority of the population.

In the end electric cars will not replace petrol/diesel but the latter will disappear with the obvious consequences.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299873#Comment_299873 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299873#Comment_299873 Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:19:58 +0000 Pile-o-Stone
Unless the Greens and co. want us to move back to pre-1980s where we all lived in terrace housing, walked to the factory at the end of the street, had all our mates living in the same housing estate as us, went on a holiday one week a year to a UK seaside resort on a coach or train, then the discussion is moot. I'd also wonder why left-wing parties seem to want to return the working classes to this sort of limited income, limited travel, limited life drudge? It's almost like the left don't want any sort of mobility for the working classes.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299874#Comment_299874 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299874#Comment_299874 Wed, 25 Jan 2023 10:28:26 +0000 Cliff Pope
Suppose for the sake of argument that my council tax exactly matches the cost of running a car. If I am going to be persuaded to give up the car, then perhaps a local subscription scheme would work. The council would provide a personalised minibus service, on call 24 hours a day, and my council tax would pay for it. If I were persuaded that the service would work almost perfectly, and never go on strike, I MIGHT give up my car.
The snag would be that there would be no money for any other local government services.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299879#Comment_299879 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299879#Comment_299879 Wed, 25 Jan 2023 13:49:41 +0000 fostertom Posted By: fostertomIt's a staggeringly large new lithium-ore quarry anywaySeems quarrying ore isn't how it happens - evaporating ponds as far as the eye can see instead, even for small producers:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/25/bolivia-lithium-mining-salt-flats
I wonder whose indigenous lands that was. So much for the 'mass of materials' comparison!]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299888#Comment_299888 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299888#Comment_299888 Wed, 25 Jan 2023 22:36:08 +0000 Jonti
the problem with finding a solution in the UK is the assumption that public transport can't work sufficiently well. I have lived in several European countries where they functioned extremely well.

Pile-o-Stone,

so where do you think the solution lies? Do bare in mind that for those of us living out in the sticks such as myself electric cars are not really a solution nor will they be affordable come 2035 due to a lack of stock compared to the demand. Nor do electric cars work for all those flat capped, pigeon fanciers living in the terrace houses of the north as how do you charge them?]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299912#Comment_299912 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299912#Comment_299912 Thu, 26 Jan 2023 18:18:10 +0000 philedge Posted By: Pile-o-StoneEveryone else needs a car to travel to out of town shopping malls, to travel to their places of work (often also out of town on industrial estates) and to travel to see their friends.
I think that for the majority of people the "need a car" is actually "want a car".

Most people I know either do or are able to ride 5-10 miles out to a country pub or other attraction for leisure. Given that the majority of car journeys are under 5 miles it seems obvious that a massive rethink on cycling infrastructure is needed.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299915#Comment_299915 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299915#Comment_299915 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:39:36 +0000 WillInAberdeen
I don't know why they're unpopular in the UK and why green organisations here aren't pushing harder for them. Here, we only seem to link motor scooters with pizza delivery, or else with high-risk leisure motorbiking.

As with pedal bikes, they are at risk when sharing a road occupied 99% by cars, but once 20%+ of people are on a moped then they are normalised and the risk gets much less. In NL, the 'bromfiets' are limited to 30mph and you have a license, helmet and insurance, and lots of people ride them.

Anyone here considered trading down from a car to a moped?]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299916#Comment_299916 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299916#Comment_299916 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:09:08 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary
Over here mopeds (less than 50ccs) are much easier than in the UK in terms of licencing etc. (no number plates no MOT and insurance costs peanuts) but most mopeds and cycles (and bigger motor bikes) are seasonal affairs usually put away from October to late April.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299917#Comment_299917 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299917#Comment_299917 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:04:12 +0000 bhommels
A single sub-50cc (often two stroke) moped is as polluting as a large lorry. For this reason alone these should be outlawed in favour of electric versions ASAP. So far they have escaped regulatory clampdowns for fear of targeting the 'wrong' demographic/social strata.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299919#Comment_299919 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299919#Comment_299919 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:40:05 +0000 WillInAberdeen
But electrification is indeed the obvious next step.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299925#Comment_299925 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299925#Comment_299925 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 19:10:07 +0000 philedge Posted By: WillInAberdeen
But electrification is indeed the obvious next step.

As well as a climate crisis and urban air quality crisis, we also have an obesity crisis so non motorised urban transport is likely the more sensible next step.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299926#Comment_299926 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299926#Comment_299926 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 19:46:29 +0000 WillInAberdeen "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299929#Comment_299929 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299929#Comment_299929 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:56:44 +0000 djh

I've been getting irritated with the 'infotainment' systems in recent electric cars (because that's all I've seen recently), but it just occurred to me that maybe dinosaur-fuelled cars also have the same idiotic infotainment systems? For example, I was sitting in the car today listening to the radio and every minute it beeped at me and popped up a message warning me I was discharging the [low voltage] battery, and advising me to start the car. Which would use a lot more power of course.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299930#Comment_299930 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299930#Comment_299930 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 21:21:26 +0000 WillInAberdeen

Infotainment's the brave new world. If I'm driving along in snow with winter gloves on, and I want to blow air to clear the windscreen, I have to pull a glove off to tap through to the correct menu screen. And yes it won't let me listen to the radio without the engine running, and hence the auto headlights and wipers on, to preserve the charge of the 12V battery. That's in my wife's dinosaur-burner from 2016.

I understand even some electric mopeds have those touchscreen dashboard systems now, must be a lot cheaper than actual physical buttons and dials.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299933#Comment_299933 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299933#Comment_299933 Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:48:18 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: WillInAberdeenInfotainment's the brave new world. If I'm driving along in snow with winter gloves on, and I want to blow air to clear the windscreen, I have to pull a glove off to tap through to the correct menu screen. And yes it won't let me listen to the radio without the engine running, and hence the auto headlights and wipers on, to preserve the charge of the 12V battery. That's in my wife's dinosaur-burner from 2016.
Recently new to EV owning - what a lot of gadgets included and yes lots of them aren't accessible whilst wearing gloves. Very light to drive, I've had to swap my farm boots used to drive the Land Rover for ballet pumps for the EV - still whilst lots of gadgets to go wrong with it's 7 year bumper to bumper warranty hopefully it won't be my problem. :bigsmile:]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299935#Comment_299935 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299935#Comment_299935 Sat, 28 Jan 2023 10:51:06 +0000 djh
I had an e-bike but sold it a while ago. It wasn't very practical for carrying shopping, plus the usual exposure to weather issue, and a lot more effort to secure it than a car. Two chains and an alarm to set each time, versus press one button. :cry:]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299938#Comment_299938 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299938#Comment_299938 Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:16:04 +0000 fostertom "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299939#Comment_299939 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299939#Comment_299939 Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:34:03 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: djh
Posted By: borpin
Posted By: Simon StillThe Crompton ones need you to rewire your fitting and remove the ballast
Would that need Part P?

Or just a 'competent person'?
Good question. Dunno about the theoretical answer, but I do know the practical onehttp:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:" >


Posted By: fostertomGloves readily available that have conductive finger tips,

For use by DIY electricians swapping out ballast to fit LEDs:shocked::shocked:]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299941#Comment_299941 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299941#Comment_299941 Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:58:05 +0000 WillInAberdeen

Cars are now just 4-wheeled IT networks. If you have a problem in 7 years time, you'll message the dealer's IT support chatbot, who will ask if you have subscribed to all the software updates and whether you have turned the car off and on again. Then you'll be told your problem is a feature not a bug.]]> "transition to electric cars threatens environmental havoc" - and the cure http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299943#Comment_299943 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17712&Focus=299943#Comment_299943 Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:06:17 +0000 djh ]]>