Green Building Forum - Mixergy Tue, 19 Dec 2023 08:35:52 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299540#Comment_299540 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299540#Comment_299540 Sat, 07 Jan 2023 13:22:21 +0000 Rex
Chatting with a friend who is upgrading his house and having installed a Mixergy thermal store tank, is most impressed with it.

Out of interest, I have been searching the internet and do not understand all the hoola. It says that only the hot water needed is heated which I assume means that only the top of the tank is hot. What happens if one wants a bath? Does the hot water run out?

I assume the Mixergy runs via a heat exchanger but I as a point of interest, I cannot find any mention of one.

When I was building, I did investigate a thermal store but for various reasons, did not install one. I was taken with the European models that had around 100mm of insulation. The Mixergy has the standard UK insulation of around 50-60mm; is that really sufficient to reduce heat loss?

Don't know what I a missing but what benefits does app control and an Ethernet connection offer? Frankly, the last thing I want in my life is a hot water tank that is controlled from my phone, but mine not to reason why.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299542#Comment_299542 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299542#Comment_299542 Sat, 07 Jan 2023 15:26:52 +0000 revor https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=&view=detail&mid=B55F54CF1CFB13F93A8CB55F54CF1CFB13F93A8C&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dmixergy%26form%3dANNNB1%26refig%3d3819a190850a41f49f8b80da5f5d28f4%26sp%3d3%26qs%3dLS%26pq%3dmixe%26sk%3dPRES1AS1LS1%26sc%3d10-4%26cvid%3d3819a190850a41f49f8b80da5f5d28f4&FORM=SPSCRV
If link does not work look for it on Fully charged youtube. A bit short on detail of how it works in terms of where the DHW is provided from.
Would not suit me as I have an aversion to using electricity to heat up water but horses for courses.
I am more than happy with my Gledhill solar thermal store just wish there was a bit more insulation on it.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299544#Comment_299544 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299544#Comment_299544 Sat, 07 Jan 2023 20:33:07 +0000 borpin Posted By: revorWould not suit me as I have an aversion to using electricity to heat up water but horses for courses.
I am more than happy with my Gledhill solar thermal store just wish there was a bit more insulation on it.I'm looking at an in-line instant water heater to boost the temperature of the water in my TS. It will take warmed water and simply boost it to the required temperature.

I'm reasonably sure the small amount of energy required to do the 'boost' will be outweighed by

1. The need to heat the tank to a higher temperature i.e. I can run the boiler more efficiently.
2. The static losses from the tank sitting with over hot water in it.
3. no overshoot (i.e. the boiler still heating when the showering has finished).

I have recently been trying to reduce the temperature in the tank (for the above reasons) by reducing the max boiler temp, but as my new 'modern' boiler takes an age to get up to the point of delivering hot water to the tank (by design, more efficient I'm told), we currently need to plan the showers about 20 mins in advance.

I'm hoping the booster will alleviate that problem, be more flexible and ultimately be no more expensive to run.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299546#Comment_299546 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299546#Comment_299546 Sat, 07 Jan 2023 21:09:02 +0000 WillInAberdeen
If you tried that with a normal cylinder, you'd just have a tankful of lukewarm water.

By only heating the water that you need, and not a whole tankful every time, they claim to reduce heat losses and waste.

There's also lots of control and monitoring gizmos to learn when you typically need hot water, or find out when it will be cheapest and heat at the right time, but you could ignore if that's not your thing.

So overall a bit more efficient than a trad cylinder. But probably still worth adding a lot more insulation, IDK why that's not a legal requirement.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299550#Comment_299550 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299550#Comment_299550 Sun, 08 Jan 2023 08:39:24 +0000 PeterStarck Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299551#Comment_299551 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299551#Comment_299551 Sun, 08 Jan 2023 08:57:20 +0000 tony Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299552#Comment_299552 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299552#Comment_299552 Sun, 08 Jan 2023 09:55:25 +0000 revor Posted By: tonyWhere are the heat losses going?

In my situation the heat will go into the room the tank is situated which is a plant/utility room. That has UFH with its own thermostat so any heat loss self compensates. In summer it is not an issue as almost without exception all the hot water is solar thermal production. I did my own plumbing and I got a local heating engineer to quote to fit a boiler and connect the gas. He said I could get my own boiler install it and he would connect up the gas (LPG) He noticed that I had fitted a London loop on the cold feed to the ST (stops hot water going up cold feed) and asked what it was. I told him and then said I would do similar with the return from the tank to the boiler to prevent gravitational circulation to the boiler when boiler not in use. He said it was not necessary as there was too much friction in modern boilers to allow that to happen. Bowing to his 40 years experience I left it out. Guess what, I was right, before I was connected to gas the solar thermal heat was going around the boiler and making it a "radiator". Later on had to fit a gravitation spring assisted non retrun valve.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299554#Comment_299554 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299554#Comment_299554 Sun, 08 Jan 2023 09:59:58 +0000 WillInAberdeen >>>> "Where are the heat losses going?"

To the same place as the incandescent light bulbs' losses go, and the old G-rated fridges' losses! Paying to heat up your home in midsummer. :bigsmile:

There's no way BC would accept 60mm of foam as adequate loft insulation to keep a home heated to 20⁰C, so beats me how that could be adequate to keep a tank heated at 60-80⁰C.

I've built a PIR box around our last couple of tanks, but the modern style of mounting all the plumbing/valves/pumps directly onto the tank, makes that awkward to fit.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299555#Comment_299555 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299555#Comment_299555 Sun, 08 Jan 2023 10:13:24 +0000 bhommels Posted By: WillInAberdeen
I've built a PIR box around our last couple of tanks, but the modern style of mounting all the plumbing/valves/pumps directly onto the tank, makes that awkward to fit.
+1 same here. I used rockwool stuffed refuse bags held in place with netting to cover the on-tank plumbing.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299557#Comment_299557 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299557#Comment_299557 Sun, 08 Jan 2023 11:20:47 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: WillInAberdeen
I've built a PIR box around our last couple of tanks, but the modern style of mounting all the plumbing/valves/pumps directly onto the tank, makes that awkward to fit.

Posted By: bhommels+1 same here. I used rockwool stuffed refuse bags held in place with netting to cover the on-tank plumbing.

Except that pumps and electrically operated valves should not be covered with insulation so any additional insulation should leave pump heads and motorised valves exposed to ambient air.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299562#Comment_299562 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299562#Comment_299562 Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:34:37 +0000 Rex
https://www.pmmag.com/articles/91937-thermal-accumulators

And quoted from the site:

Superinsulation
At trade shows like Mostra or ISH, it’s quickly evident that European manufacturers take their insulation seriously. Seldom will you see uninsulated pipe, even in situations where the pipe passes through heated space. Ditto for tank insulation. Most thermal accumulator tanks have at least 3 inches of foam insulation surrounding the entire water vessel. Some use rigid urethane foam. Others use a flexible foam wrap that’s installed on site. This allows the tank shell to fit through narrower doorways. Once set in place, the insulation wraps around the tank, and closes up with a heavy-duty zipper.
One manufacturer lists the thermal loss of its thermal accumulator at 0.1 degree Kelvin/hr. This converts to 0.18 degree F per hour. It states that a thermal accumulator initially heated to 95 degrees C (203 degrees F), remaining in standby mode, will still be at 70 degrees C (158 degrees F) eight days later. Compare this to some North American tanks that proudly promote losses of only 0.5 to 1 degree F per hour.
The way I see it, if you’re going to build a high-quality device to accept and deliver heat precisely when and were it’s needed, why not build it like a big Thermos bottle? You wouldn’t be pleased with an electrical battery that self-discharges in a few hours, why accept such performance from a “thermal battery?”]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299563#Comment_299563 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299563#Comment_299563 Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:47:36 +0000 bhommels Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
Posted By: bhommels+1 same here. I used rockwool stuffed refuse bags held in place with netting to cover the on-tank plumbing.

Except that pumps and electrically operated valves should not be covered with insulation so any additional insulation should leave pump heads and motorised valves exposed to ambient air. Which is perfectly well possible with pliable insulation as described :bigsmile:]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299633#Comment_299633 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299633#Comment_299633 Sat, 14 Jan 2023 16:04:33 +0000 borpin
https://www.stiebel-eltron.co.uk/en/products-solutions/Hotwater/instantaneous_waterheater/compact_instantaneouswaterheater/dce-x-premium/dce-x-10-12-premium.html

Tech services were really helpful. Suggested that instead of putting it inline, just put it on a divert loop with the demand valve on the outlet side. They also said it would modulate right down.

I'm pretty certain that heating the water to a lower value (gas boiler) and using this to provide short boost will be ultimately more efficient in overall energy use, mean I do not have to pre-plan showers, and be fully ready for the HP (in 10 years when the new boiler packs in).

I have an Akvaterm tank that does stratify. The disadvantage is that the boiler currently only heats the very top (I was going to fit Solar Thermal but that never happened) so the volume of water available for DHW is relatively small so it has to be hotter.

https://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Akvaterm-Solar-Thermal-Stores.html

I plan to get the plumber in this year to flush through the system and rework a load of the pipework so it can be properly insulated, add in the instant heater, plumb it into the bottom of the tank (for the boiler return) and improve some other bits.

The fitting of pipes so you cannot get a really good layer of insulation really bugs my happiness! I wouldn't let it happen again!]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299638#Comment_299638 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299638#Comment_299638 Sat, 14 Jan 2023 22:47:35 +0000 djh Posted By: borpinCurrently looking at this heater.

https://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Akvaterm-Solar-Thermal-Stores.html
That seems to be about tanks rather than a heater?

I'm pretty certain that heating the water to a lower value (gas boiler) and using this to provide short boost will be ultimately more efficient in overall energy use, mean I do not have to pre-plan showers, and be fully ready for the HP (in 10 years when the new boiler packs in).
Dunno. I take the view that for the majority of the year the tank is heated by PV and I need to allow for days without sun, so I store a couple of days of hot water. In winter I just heat the minimum we require, but do it overnight since we have E7. YMMV.

edit: Just to add that one of the original stratified store suppliers is Solvis (the German company https://www.solvis.de/ ). Sadly not available here or I would have had one.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299648#Comment_299648 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299648#Comment_299648 Mon, 16 Jan 2023 07:56:57 +0000 borpin Posted By: djhThat seems to be about tanks rather than a heater?Yes, wrong link posted, corrected above.


Posted By: djhI take the view that for the majority of the year the tank is heated by PV
Which is fine if you have PV!]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299659#Comment_299659 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299659#Comment_299659 Mon, 16 Jan 2023 12:02:55 +0000 djh
If I didn't have PV for some strange reason I'd probably try to fit solar thermal instead.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299676#Comment_299676 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299676#Comment_299676 Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:06:48 +0000 wookey
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16032&page=1#Comment_299675]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299688#Comment_299688 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299688#Comment_299688 Tue, 17 Jan 2023 08:53:58 +0000 WillInAberdeen Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299777#Comment_299777 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=299777#Comment_299777 Fri, 20 Jan 2023 17:34:02 +0000 Rex
I feel their web site is also unhelpful, just telling me how great the product is. Will be interesting to learn from my freind (more of an acquaintance really) how he finds his tank after he has settled in with it.]]> Mixergy http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=300812#Comment_300812 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17690&Focus=300812#Comment_300812 Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:57:08 +0000 Rex
Basically, it is a normal hot water cylinder but can take any heat input source. The hot water is drawn from near the top but not the very apex of the tank. The secret of the tank is that the cold water comes in via a pump and it kinda injected from a series of atomisers at the top. So cold water is atomised into the hot water at the top of the tank. And because it is in a kinda atomised form, it mixes with the hot water faster and hence heats it faster.

There is a sensor strip inside the tank and one can therefore select how much hot water you need to heat.

And of course, via your wi-fi router and the on-board computer, it can connect to the Mixergy control centre to determine any faults and remedies. Not sure why I need my hot water tank to be on the internet, but may be that is just a 'grumpy old man' thing!

As an aside, Mixergy are an Oxford University start-up so perhaps it does work well. Only time will tell.]]>