Green Building Forum - Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Beau — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 11:55:06 +0100

Hi all.

When we converted our barn 15+ years ago I built some French doors. I have had problems with air tightness and weathering of the finish. I used larch which has been rot-resistant but still moves seasonally leaving poor sealing around the edges and especially where the doors meet each other. We were pressed for money so never considered expensive/high-spec doors nor had the time to build engineered wood doors. Now I really would like to have better doors. We are on an exposed site with the doors facing east. They get cooked in the summer and soaked for months on end in our Dartmoor winters. What would you recommend? I can build to a high standard but obviously, aly cladding of woodwork is beyond me. Thanks, Beau

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:25:09 +0100

Whose guarantee do you want - your own or the manufactures?

IMO it will be difficult, unless you have sophisticated machinery and the availability to get engineered wood plus the fittings, to make your own to the standard of top end manufactured units which your location will probably need.

(over here engineering wood comes in lengths of 6m and 12m so an amount of wastage might result)

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Beau — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:53:04 +0100

I worked as a cabinet maker for many years and kept the workshop and tooling.

I can get engineered timber but would happily make up something similar if needed

https://www.lathamtimber.co.uk/products/engineered-timber-woodex-/woodex-reg-/softwood-woodex-reg-#381

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

owlman — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 15:00:15 +0100

Hi Beau,

On my Sun room, I have some sliding/folding doors, South facing on one side, and I'm faced with similar often baking hot exposure and wetting of the bottom stile as water bounces off the decking.
I used laminated ( 3ply ), oak, finishing at 60mm. I also have two hinged doors of the same construction. The two hinged doors are outward opening with 4 x SS hi-load projection hinges on each, and multipoint full length locking mechanisms. These doors have the same issue with wetting of the bottom stile but not the hot temperature bit, ( they're E facing ). After 9 years there's no sign of the mortice and tenon joints opening or door warping but obvious discolouration of the oak.
II recently had made some brushed SS kick plates, which I'm going to fit to the whole of the bottom stiles after a good dousing of preservative.
Based on my experience I'd do the same again, but my points to note are:- a). overhead cover if possible. b). use over sized door thickness, ( and poss. 3G? ). c). Use laminated material. d). multipoint locks are good as they anchor the doors in several places. d). If it's really exposed a lightweight sacrificial door , easily removable may provide some cover in the worst periods, sort of a screen door but maybe with single acrylic glazing instead of mesh.
It follows that ideally door and frame need making on the bench as a single complete unit, with machined groove weatherstripping.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

djh — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 15:27:20 +0100

Just be grateful they're not west facing Ali cladding doesn't do anything to stop seasonal movement of wood; it just stops the rain driving into it and keeps the sun off it. If you intend to build your own then you need to source the same engineered wood and paint treatments the companies use I suspect, if you want to get the same performance. The Latham stuff looks good to my untutored eye. I expect window manufacturers buy in lengths of the aluminium extrusions; maybe it's possible to source it yourself as well?

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Artiglio — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 16:00:43 +0100

If youâ€™re happy to make them again, then take a deep breath and build them from Accoya,( absurdly expensive but if youâ€™re doing it yourself easily covered by the savings on the joinery costs of having them made for you) it really doesnâ€™t move at all, youâ€™ll need pu adhesives and stainless fixtures and fittings, the bumph that comes from the manufacturer means that the guarantee is worthless outside of a factory environment for the specified paint system, however plenty of opinions on suitable paints online, i used jotun demi dek. Aquamac seals will deal with airtightness , easy enough to have a double seal on top and sidesof the doors, centre rebates and around the lock is the area hardest to deal with.
However still use something like a decent piece of oak for the threshold as thatâ€™ll cope better with foot traffic.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

revor — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:57:00 +0100

The best softwood for exterior is Douglas fir painted and cheaper than accoya although not much I expect as it is the dearest of the softwoods. I used that to make a pair of Victorian entrance doors on my previous house about 35 years ago copied of originals that were still in situ on a neighbours house. The sill was mahogany rescued from somewhere. I used aquamac seals and matching router cutters I often visit my ex next door neighbour and can see how well they have faired still looking good . They were pretty well draught proofed but could have been improved to todays standard.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

tony — Sun, 17 Sep 2023 20:00:27 +0100

With French doors I like espangolette handles, can be lockable but nothing on the outside, open from inside, no silly rack bolts , nicely secure

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

revor — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 09:19:06 +0100

Posted By: tonyWith French doors I like espangolette handles, can be lockable but nothing on the outside, open from inside, no silly rack bolts , nicely secure

Totally agree only snag they are horribly expensive but do serve a better solution than having to seal around rebated sash locks

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Beau — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 09:54:39 +0100

Thanks for all the suggestions.

If I go down the home-built route would you go for a compression or wiper seal? I previously only used compression as it copes with a bit of expansion and contraction of the wood without breaking the seal. The downside is sometimes the doors warp slightly due to moisture/heat and then the seal doesn't meet the seal. Aquamac 21 is my usual go-to seal but open to suggestions and a double seal would presumably be better.

I was considering a minimalist door so the glass is almost structual. More wood just means when it warps it's more unstoppable IME

This was the type of lock I was thinking of and not entirely clear what Tony and Revor are suggesting. I am not great at terminology https://www.lockstation.co.uk/era-5345-french-door-kit-for-a-pair-of-plain-meeting-style-timber-doors-erafrenchkit3?gclid=CjwKCAjw6p-oBhAYEiwAgg2PgoaZ2IH3sGeYQAGQf3P5Xrbm4mMI83mjKouFhvUwcEkgCPaHrM4rURoCiZAQAvD_BwE

Accoya is interesting. My father's place had an Accoya door but it still jams up a bit in winter (west-facing) . Probably not as bad as the old sapele one though.

If I just go for pro door who might you suggest getting quotes from? Also UPV, aluminum, wood, other?

Thanks Beau

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

owlman — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:08:00 +0100

How wide is the opening?

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Artiglio — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:19:13 +0100

Beau, regarding the accoya door, was the frame also accoya ( with exception of the threshold)? If so what sort of clearances are there ? Are there seals being used , as itâ€™s generally considered that the seals will take up any tiny amounts of movement ( if any) that occur with accoya.
Aquamac 21 is the seal my joiner uses, double sealed on sides and top of frame ( one wipes the other in compression) he offered a double seal in the meeting rebate , but to do so means a very ugly/ large rebate so i opted for a single seal.
With careful fitting of the seals after painting , the problem area is around the lock, there is minimal air leakage, it doesnâ€™t worry me ( listed conversion that will never be airtight) but would others seeking as near perfect performance as acan be achieved.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Beau — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:28:09 +0100

Posted By: owlmanHow wide is the opening?

1330mm wall to wall

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

lineweight — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 14:15:12 +0100

It's difficult to suggest where to get quotes from without knowing your priorities - aesthetics, U-value, warranties, etc.

I most often end up at alu-clad timber because all-timber has maintenance issues, all-aluminium means compromising U-values, PVC is ugly.

Aluminium tends to be where you end up at, if you want to prioritise slim frames and maximum glazed area.

And i often look at the fairly mainstream systems such as Velfac, Rationel, Idealcombi because then you have a number of suppliers to choose from, you have some chance of gaining a meaningful warranty, and of obtaining spare parts. And those three will offer triple glazing.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

owlman — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:25:31 +0100

You mentioned minimal frame, max glass look. These are about as far as you can go with that idea.
At 1330 you could possibly? have a single bi-old, either inward or outward opening.

https://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/products/bifold-doors/glass2edge#ag

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

lineweight — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:42:25 +0100

Posted By: owlmanYou mentioned minimal frame, max glass look. These are about as far as you can go with that idea.
At 1330 you could possibly? have a single bi-old, either inward or outward opening.

https://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/products/bifold-doors/glass2edge#ag" rel="nofollow" >https://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/products/bifold-doors/glass2edge#ag

With those type, I always wonder what the deal is if you need to replace a glazing panel. Obviously you need a stepped glazing unit, but does it become a specialist job to de-bond the old panel from the frame and then re-bond the new one. It seems like there must be some kind of glue involved to keep the panels in place.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

owlman — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:03:53 +0100

Is it a specialist job ?
I would guess highly likely. The two outer panes appear to be bonded to the aluminium frame with the centre pane inserted into the extrusion. The glass and hidden frame are essentially one.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

lineweight — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:23:33 +0100

Posted By: owlmanIs it a specialist job ?
I would guess highly likely. The two outer panes appear to be bonded to the aluminium frame with the centre pane inserted into the extrusion. The glass and hidden frame are essentially one.

Their drawings show a double rather than triple glazed unit but I think the principle would be the same. The sealed unit is made with the outermost pane extending beyond the spacer bars and edges of the other panes. Then placed into the aluminium frame as shown in the drawings. It looks to me like it woud have to be bonded to the frame in some way to keep the glass unit from falling out but I'm not sure that in this system the glass forms part of the structure.

The aluminium frames aren't any slimmer than a "normal" frame so you don't gain any extra daylight area or slim appearance from inside - it just gives a sort of frameless illusion from outside.

There are systems where the glass is structurally bonded to part of the frame. I have one ... two part sliding window where the central parting stile can be just 20mm wide because it is bonded to the glass unit. However - this means it's a pain to get it reglazed - as I now need to do! With hindsight I should have paid more attention to this when choosing the system. It's not something they mention to you when buying - that you are locking yourself into something that may become difficult/expensive to reglaze if the glass gets damaged.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

owlman — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:35:21 +0100

Have a look at this.

https://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/products/bifold-doors/glass2edge/gg65

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

lineweight — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:51:39 +0100

Ah yes I see. There's a version where the glass overlaps on both sides. Definitely not a simple job to reglaze that!

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Dominic Cooney — Wed, 20 Sep 2023 09:58:50 +0100

"Trickle vents to meet Building Regulations"
I hope there's an option not to have them!

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

fostertom — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 10:09:13 +0100

Posted By: BeauThis was the type of lock I was thinking of and not entirely clear what Tony and Revor are suggesting. I am not great at terminology https://www.lockstation.co.uk/era-5345-french-door-kit-for-a-pair-of-plain-meeting-style-timber-doors-erafrenchkit3?gclid=CjwKCAjw6p-oBhAYEiwAgg2PgoaZ2IH3sGeYQAGQf3P5Xrbm4mMI83mjKouFhvUwcEkgCPaHrM4rURoCiZAQAvD_BwE

Surely Tony's suggesting surface-fixed espagnolettes, as traditional in France? e.g (random search result, not a recommendation) https://www.pickardhardware.com/Products/000d0004

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

revor — Sun, 24 Sep 2023 14:50:28 +0100

Posted By: fostertomhttps://www.pickardhardware.com/Products/000d0004" rel="nofollow" >https://www.pickardhardware.com/Products/000d0004

That is the type I was thinking of. No hardware to get in the way of the draught seals. They are mainly designed for the inside but you can get them to operate from the outside and with a lock.

Make or buy new French doors for barn conversion

Beau — Tue, 03 Oct 2023 11:27:02 +0100

Thanks Tom

Not seen those before and can see why they make it much easier to seal between the doors