Renewable Energy: Maximising solar PV utilisation

1 to 30 of 48

- CommentAuthorSprocket
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
ie. use it all instead of exporting it.

I was sent some marketing blurb about a system from "Cool Power Products" called "EMMA" that automatically diverts all excess PV electricity to your immersion heater. It looks to cost about Â£1700 (which seems quite pricey to me given the pretty simple job it does). I'm not sure we're supposed to post links here but you'll find it if you Google it.

It's of limited interest to me anyway since my PV is running my GSHPs and I will of course set timers so the GSHPs run when PV is most likely to be available. I did consider trying to do something smarter (our plant rooms are networked and I can read the PV output so the essentials are already there) but then that amounts to a similar thing anyway - making most use of the PV. Is that entirely ethical? I don't have an export meter so doesn't it mean my power provider would be overpaying me for presumed exports? Is that my problem or theirs?

Anyway, I would be interested to know what folks in here think of the idea?
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
The simple (that being a relative term....) way would be to knock up a unit to detect when you're exporting and switch on extra loads in the house. In principle this could be as simple as a clip-on current sensor that detects the direction of current flow from the house to the mains and switches on something useful and power-hungry.

For those keen on tinkering, I'd have thought that a fairly simple circuit could be knocked up to do this for just a few pounds, maybe Â£20 to Â£30 tops, depending on the cost of the current sensor.
- CommentAuthorowlman
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012 edited
discussed here Sprocket:-- "How to use your excess/export power"
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
Unethical IMHO if you were deliberately dumping into (inefficient from a CO2 point of view) immersion as you are being paid to generate low-carbon electricity for the grid and export at least half of it, but if you are using a heat-pump and store then you are in fact probably helping the grid (providing storage) in tandem with CO2-efficient heating.

Rgds

Damon
- CommentAuthorted
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
Also realise that this is a short-term issue (and therefore cannot justify an EMMA in most domestic circumstances on a 5-7 year horizon) as metered export will become more the norm with the roll-out of SmartMeters. The 50% deeming is just an interim measure pending that.
- CommentAuthorDamonHD
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
Though if the export rate remains low and in particular much lower than any import rate that the consumer sees then there plenty incentive to continue in the EMMA line of thinking.

So we need higher export rates and very low off-peak/dynamic ToD rates for the pricing to drive the lowest-carbon behaviour.

Rgds

Damon
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
Posted By: tedmetered export will become more the norm with the roll-out of SmartMeters. The 50% deeming is just an interim measure pending that.
tHE GOVT SAID 'FOR 1 YEAR', AT THE OUTSET. wHAT'S THE HOLD UP? (sorry, caps lock)
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeJan 20th 2012
Does anyone know the rationale for the low export payment rate? It's always seemed very odd to me to pay a high FIT subsidy and then pay a very low export payment.

Surely increasing the export payment would incentivise people to reduce their own consumption from their PV installations (a good thing, from an energy consumption perspective) and encourage more export (a good thing from the UK renewables perspective).

It seems simple, which means I've probably misunderstood something along the line.
- CommentAuthorted
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
It's just below the wholesale price of electricity, which excludes the DUoS and TUoS elements, about 4.5p/kWh currently. The original proposal was for 5p but that was knocked down following representation from the electricity companies.

The slow roll-out of SmartMeters is even more surprising if DECC's contention that it is self-financing for the electricity companies holds any truth - Â£11 billion costs vs Â£12 billion benefits. I suspect that those companies have some different figures that they hold more confidence in.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
Posted By: tedThe slow roll-out of SmartMeters is even more surprising if DECC's contention that it is self-financing for the electricity companies holds any truth - Â£11 billion costs vs Â£12 billion benefits. I suspect that those companies have some different figures that they hold more confidence in.
If smart meters reduce usage, where is the benefit to the companies?
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012 edited
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: ted</cite>It's just below the wholesale price of electricity, which excludes the DUoS and TUoS elements, about 4.5p/kWh currently. The original proposal was for 5p but that was knocked down following representation from the electricity companies.

The slow roll-out of SmartMeters is even more surprising if DECC's contention that it is self-financing for the electricity companies holds any truth - Â£11 billion costs vs Â£12 billion benefits. I suspect that those companies have some different figures that they hold more confidence in.</blockquote>

Thanks, Ted, as usual you are the oracle on these matters!

I suppose my thoughts are really about the policy of providing a subsidy for local microgeneration and how best to incentivise people to reduce energy use rather than make money from FITs. I've seen ideas (such as the ones above) mentioned several times recently and I suspect it's only a matter of time before such load-optimisation systems become mainstream. My concern then is that people may look at fitting microgeneration systems as a means to allow them to waste more energy in their homes, rather than as a way to reduce our dependence on other forms of power generation.

If I was paid the same for energy export (assuming that FIT money was transferred to an energy export payment) as I was for import, and if I was driven by cost, rather than environmental concerns, I would be motivated to reduce domestic energy use to maximise income from my microgeneration export, which seems to me to be a good thing. It would, in effect, drive behaviour in the right direction using one of the most powerful motivational factors we seem to have available.

The smart meters problem seems to be the sticking point here, as without an easy way to automatically measure and record import and export it would, presumably, be difficult to administer.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
BTW, Is it still OK to quote you or is that publishing without consent?
Posted By: JSHarrisIf I was paid the same for energy export (assuming that FIT money was transferred to an energy export payment) as I was for import, and if I was driven by cost, rather than environmental concerns, I would be motivated to reduce domestic energy use to maximise income from my microgeneration export, which seems to me to be a good thing. It would, in effect, drive behaviour in the right direction using one of the most powerful motivational factors we seem to have available.
Hadn't thought of it this way but I suspect you are right.
- CommentAuthorted
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
borpin, the consumer savings from reduced consumption are estimated at surprisingly small figures - 2.8% for electricity and 2% for gas.

Major benefits for suppliers are listed as:

- reduced site visits
- reduced customer enquiries
- reduced debt handling
- reduced customer switching
- reduced Pre-payment Meter Cost of Serve
- reduced theft
- avoided investment

All according to DECC documents -
http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/smart-metering-imp-prog/2549-smart-meter-rollout-domestic-ia-180811.pdf
http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/smart-metering-imp-prog/2550-smip-rollout-small-and-med-non-dom.pdf
https://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/what%20we%20do/supporting%20consumers/smart%20energy%20meters/file45997.pdf
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
Hi Ted, thanks.

I wonder if part of the problem is the comms issue and I therefore wonder if a condition of supply will eventually be that you must provide access to an internet connection? I for one would be unhappy about that.
- CommentAuthorwindy lamb
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
So my export meter is not a smart meter then, as someone has to come around and read it?
I suppose you could always attach a mobile phone modem thing. If the electricity Co needed an internet connection they would have to pay my line and broadband rental. Another corporate ripoff!
- CommentAuthorted
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
These are all issues that are pretty much solved for half-hourly metering installations already, so there are no real technical challenges as such. I think it all boils down to costs.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
Posted By: windy lambIf the electricity Co needed an internet connection they would have to pay my line and broadband rental.
My point is that it may be "allow us access to an internet connection or else we won't supply you or charge you extra". They already charge extra for those who cannot do Direct Debit so there is no difference.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
Can't they use 'power line' communication back to a substation or something?
- CommentAuthorGavin_A
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012 edited
Posted By: borpin
Posted By: windy lambIf the electricity Co needed an internet connection they would have to pay my line and broadband rental.
My point is that it may be "allow us access to an internet connection or else we won't supply you or charge you extra". They already charge extra for those who cannot do Direct Debit so there is no difference.

it's all on the mobile phone networks afaik
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
It is now, but it could be made a condition of supply on their best rates, to provide a connection. Would make it cheaper for them.
- CommentAuthorwindy lamb
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
I'm pretty sure it would be an unreasonable contract change if they insisted on using YOUR internet connection - surely the regulator couldn't allow that. What if you suddenly didn't have a land line - lots of people don't.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012 edited
Posted By: windy lambI'm pretty sure it would be an unreasonable contract change if they insisted on using YOUR internet connection - surely the regulator couldn't allow that. What if you suddenly didn't have a land line - lots of people don't.
I am not suggesting a change to the contract, but that as people change supplier (as we are encouraged to do), the supply companies could start to introduce a condition that an internet connection is made available so you can get the cheapest rates. Where someone does not have such a connection, they would not be able to get the best rates. I suspect they have the ability to do this as, after all, those without a bank account get very poor rates of supply.

EDIT By Me! Equally, they could put up the rate on your exisitng 'plan' (as and when the T&Cs allow) forcing you to change to a plan with a lower rate but where you have to provide access to an internet connection.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012 edited
They could be at the mercy of ISPs who may want to charge them, and anyone remember the Dot Com boom and bust, it would be a lot of work for the energy companies to come over and read your meter when it all goes wrong. There is also a trend to 'go wireless' for everything, including your home Broad Band. It is going to be cheaper for the ISP's that way, less infrastructure.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
Posted By: SteamyTeaThey could be at the mercy of ISPs who may want to charge them,
Sorry ST, I don't follow. It is only data, no different to what is carried every day. The Meter has an IP address and knows to send the data to somewhere else. The ISPs are just a carrier who actually does not care.
- CommentAuthorbot de paille
- CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
Smartmeters communicate over the power lines, end of story.

I currently work away from home during the week and have rented a small appartement for my away accomodation
Soon after first taking it I accidently left an electric heater in the bathroom on when I left one morning (until that first cup of coffee, not all cylinders are firing). That afternoon I got a message from the owner asking if everything was ok as she had a call from the power company that morning asking her if there was a problem in the appartement...
- CommentAuthorGavin_A
- CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
Posted By: bot de pailleSmartmeters communicate over the power lines, end of story.

British Gas would beg to differ

"Smart meters work by transmitting a signal, in the same way a mobile phone does, automatically sending us your meter reading."

http://www.britishgas.co.uk/business/products-and-services/energy-management/smart-metering.html

although it'd be fair to say that there also is the potential to use the grid to communicate stuff like change in tariff rates to smart meters equipped with that sort of technolgy - ie the next generation of economy 7 type set ups. It obviously couldn't be used for the 25 million meters to send their data back.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
Posted By: Gavin_AIt obviously couldn't be used for the 25 million meters to send their data back.

Why not, not that high a number in IP terms, we have TCP/IP V6 now.
- CommentAuthorbot de paille
- CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012 edited
"British Gas would beg to differ"

I thought this thread was about exporting excess PV elec back to grid, not excess gas.
No real reason to smartmeter gas, not for the customers anyway
- CommentAuthorJSHarris
- CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
<blockquote><cite>Posted By: bot de paille</cite>"British Gas would beg to differ"

I thought this thread was about exporting excess PV elec back to grid, not excess gas.
No real reason to smartmeter gas, not for the customers anyway</blockquote>

British Gas are an electricity supplier, as well as a gas supplier, now.
- CommentAuthorted
- CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
BG sell electricity now as well as gas.

And gas is also going to get SmartMetered, mainly for the benefit of the suppliers.

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Renewable Energy: Maximising solar PV utilisation