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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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Renewable Energy: Home energy, battery storage.

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2017
     
    Has anyone take the plunge into a PV fed home storage system. I saw Jim Ingram asked some time ago about home made systems, - probably smaller than I was thinking, but did you get anywhere Jim?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    I have my little off-grid system entirely separate from my grid-tie system, though it does have the effect of leaving more of the grid-tie energy for export or other appliances:

    http://www.earth.org.uk/expanding-off-grid-PV-system.html

    A nominal 2kWh of usable storage, though with my ageing batteries probably 0.5kWh now!

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2017
     
    Hello Damon,
    It's nice to hear from you again, it's a long time since I saw your name on this forum, perhaps I'm just reading the wrong threads.
    For some time now I've been trying to forward plan the CH for my home once my current biomass boiler breathes it's last. It's got a while to go yet but with renovation work underway It makes sense to make provision for e.g. for electric UFH, even though this isn't going to be sufficient for the whole house. The other tack is to install ASHP either Air/Air or maybe Air/Water, TBD. In order to power all this, it kind of makes sense to utilise the 10kW of grid tied PV I currently have with some form of storage. I'm just putting a toe in the water so far and playing about with numbers. I'd had a look at a 6kW li ion system but cost and capacity wise I wondered if it was worth it, payback 'n all.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2017
     
  5.  
    If the PV could be exported now (displacing coal power off the grid), but was switched through a battery into resistance heating (displacing biomass, or maybe a future gas heater) - isn't that a net increase in CO2 emissions overall? Would be a pity if the economics pushed people in that direction...?

    Or does the battery system come with additional PV panels, which otherwise couldn't be connected onto the grid?
    • CommentAuthorMikC
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2017
     
    The idea of re purposing old electric vehicle batteries for home energy storage seems very sensible IMO. Nissan have had that idea for a while , but the lifespan of EV batteries has been better than expected so there aren't many around to re purpose.

    The future energy grid is going to be very different if consumers can all generate and store their own power. The big energy companies are going to need some very different business models if they are going to compete with consumers producing . Perhaps that's a way off yet but renewable energy technology is falling in price far far quicker than anyone had predicted 10 years ago.
  7.  
    Posted By: owlmanHello Damon,
    It's nice to hear from you again, it's a long time since I saw your name on this forum, perhaps I'm just reading the wrong threads.
    For some time now I've been trying to forward plan the CH for my home once my current biomass boiler breathes it's last. It's got a while to go yet but with renovation work underway It makes sense to make provision for e.g. for electric UFH, even though this isn't going to be sufficient for the whole house. The other tack is to install ASHP either Air/Air or maybe Air/Water, TBD. In order to power all this, it kind of makes sense to utilise the 10kW of grid tied PV I currently have with some form of storage. I'm just putting a toe in the water so far and playing about with numbers. I'd had a look at a 6kW li ion system but cost and capacity wise I wondered if it was worth it, payback 'n all.


    Cheapest first step would be a PV Diverter and store in HWC
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2017
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenIf the PV could be exported now (displacing coal power off the grid), but was switched through a battery into resistance heating (displacing biomass, or maybe a future gas heater) - isn't that a net increase in CO2 emissions overall?
    I don't see that - in at least the 'displacing gas heater' case, must reduce CO2? 'displacing biomass' maybe but still debateable.
    Maybe you're assuming the PV lost to grid would be replaced by new (or more utilisation of existing) fossil but that's not the way it's going generally.
  9.  
    owlman , just many of my plans and ideas that remain on the shelf I'm afraid :-)
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2017 edited
     
    i think some idea that could use an electric car as your store would be great moving into the future.
    drive to work , plug into local PV array , drive home plug in and pull out power for evening use,
    if you work from home then home PV would charge whenever your there.
    I'd like to see every roof from now on made of PV no more excuses!
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2017
     
    Like you Jim I've been planning, pipe dreaming really, for a while.
    I've already laid UF heating cable in the hallway and kitchen and plan to do it in a new bathroom eventually. I've taken the cable runs back to the consumer unit awaiting future plans. Air/air, or air/water heat pump may be favourite eventually for the rest of the house.
    The resistive load of the UFH cable isn't a problem for some form of PV diverter as Jeff Norton (NZ) suggests. but they wouldn't power, AFAIK, a heat pump directly, hence the need for battery storage.
    The car storage idea may come eventually, but first I've got to get a better idea of my late Autumn through early Spring, PV generation figures.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2017
     
    I have said this before but will try again, storage is inherently inefficient so in terms of national energy use it would better not to store energy, indeed the government should be giving grants and subsidies not to store energy (i.e. to leave fossil fuels unburnt)

    For an individual there can be economic advantages but in “green” terms it doesn’t add up.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2017
     
    I understand where you're coming from tony; but what you seem to be suggesting is that I should throw my "green" PV production into the "common pot" and then buy expensive electricity. Much of it produced from imported gas, fracking gas, subsidised bio-digester methane, and subsidised nuclear instead.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: owlmanI should throw my "green" PV production into the "common pot" and then buy expensive electricity
    That is just a cost of trading fossil fuels.
    Ideally there should be an environmental tax on energy, then we can find out what is expensive and what is not.
    Ă‚ÂŁ100/MWh for fossil fuels would do it.

    There is also the cost of installing your 'kit' to use your own energy. While this is coming down, it is still expensive energy and we really should, as a nation, be encouraging more large scale wind and solar. That is the cheapest option for all, even with the costs of grid reinforcement and renewal. Same with storage, though there is a problem, for the national grid/generation companies of having to add on an extra few million for every TWh/year produced.
    In time this will come and experience and some costs drop.

    My feeling is that we should let the big boys play around with this (Musk in Australia), rather than, as individuals, try and get in front of the curve, there are no savings to be made just yet.

    It is one thing to speculate and pipe dream, quite a different thing to put hard cash behind.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2017
     
    It clearly does make sense to use storage at a national scale, for short term balancing of the grid, for buffering where transmission capacity is inadequate and for the diurnal variation in solar power.

    I expect it's better to store at large scale rather than in individual domestic stores, since economies of scale will apply and also because there are some technologies that just don't make sense at a domestic scale.

    And I agree that we should have a carbon tax - a revenue neutral one.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2017
     
    I can’t see the point of storing energy at a large scale, why not use it and save whatever fuel was being used o generate power. Apart from balancing and peak demand management it is inefficient to store. Rather use and save fuel elsewhere 100% efficient theoretically.
  17.  
    Posted By: owlmanI understand where you're coming from tony; but what you seem to be suggesting is that I should throw my "green" PV production into the "common pot" and then buy expensive electricity. Much of it produced from imported gas, fracking gas, subsidised bio-digester methane, and subsidised nuclear instead.


    Yes, I do suggest that you do that, and the rest of us should make it worth your while. :-)

    Your PV is needed to displace those sources you mentioned off the grid, particularly during daytime when the grid is most CO2 intensive. If you store your PV to displace your biomass in the evening,, the grid will use more coal and gas to make up the difference, so that increases CO2 for your personal financial gain.

    The economics need to be set up the other way round, so that we all gain by you reducing CO2 and we pay you for your trouble.

    That was the intent of Feed In Tariffs, to support people who Feed In their PV for the public benefit, pity it hasn't had that effect.:bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2017
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeensupport people who Feed In their PV for the public benefit
    We had this debate about 5 years ago :wink:
  19.  
    Oops, on re reading my last post I sounded a bit narky, sorry. No offence intended to anyone.
    • CommentAuthorMikC
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2017
     
    As far as I understand it its not possible to ramp 'brown power' production up and down fast enough to accommodate grid scale renewable fluctuations throughout the day, wind farms often get asked to swith off if the grid can't take the power. Would it not be better to keep them running but dump the power into storage?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2017
     
    There are some times when it would be better, other times when it would not. A lot of it depends on where the congestion is, and that is often weather dependant.
    Take the next few days. We are expecting high winds in the North and parts of the West, but also high temperatures in the South East.
    There may also be transmission disruptions in a few areas. This scenario needs fast reactions from the national Grid. If the storage is in the wrong place, then it is of little use, regardless of how it is initially powered.

    Gas turbines can react very fast these days, with diesel backup even faster. It is only the very large thermal plants, coal and nuclear, that cannot be ramped that fast, but they can be disconnected quickly if needs be.
    We are slowly getting rid of the large thermal plants. I think it is that last point that is promoting the need for grid scale storage more than anything else.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2017
     
    Gas turbines can react very fast these days, ...

    So there is no reason to store energy, save the gas 100% efficient less ramping losses.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2017 edited
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/09/uk-first-mega-battery-plant-come-online-sheffield-eon-renewable-energy

    "At 10MW, the Blackburn Meadows battery is one of the biggest in Britain so far, but ... Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, is building a 49MW facility on the site of a former power station in Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, while EDF Energy is working on one of the same size at its West Burton gas power station in Nottinghamshire."

    "The ability of batteries to respond to demand in less than a second makes them ideal for the task, with earlier sources of backup power much slower at just under 10 seconds."
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2017
     
    Posted By: tonyGas turbines can react very fast these days, ...
    So there is no reason to store energy, save the gas 100% efficient less ramping losses.


    Where's the gas coming from?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2017
     
    Tom
    Don't get prototypes and proof of concept mixed up with reality.
    At the moment this sort of set up is still to expensive.
    There is a holiday park down here with a large solar farm attached that has got a Centrica sponsored battery system.
    I know the local man from Centrica and would not fall for the marketing speak from him.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2017
     
    There has to be a start point somewhere. Weren't you advocating "let the big boys play around with this". Those are examples of just that. They will have done the sums surely?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2017
     
    There is a diggerence between demand management, especially urgent unexpected demand and storage. I do not consider the recent examples on here storage in the sense we were talking about.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: owlmanThere has to be a start point somewhere. Weren't you advocating "let the big boys play around with this". Those are examples of just that. They will have done the sums surely?
    That I the point I have been making.
    They will do the sums for different reasons than an independent householder would. Basically they have to supply power at a mean price of around Ă‚ÂŁ50/MWh. How they do that, and for what reasons is for them and their shareholders. Individuals cannot compete at that sort of price, even if energy prices went up 50% tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: fostertomhttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/09/uk-first-mega-battery-plant-come-online-sheffield-eon-renewable-energy" rel="nofollow" >https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/09/uk-first-mega-battery-plant-come-online-sheffield-eon-renewable-energy

    "At 10MW, the Blackburn Meadows battery is one of the biggest in Britain so far, but ... Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, is building a 49MW facility on the site of a former power station in Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, while EDF Energy is working on one of the same size at its West Burton gas power station in Nottinghamshire."

    "The ability of batteries to respond to demand in less than a second makes them ideal for the task, with earlier sources of backup power much slower at just under 10 seconds."


    And I think, another one planned in West Lothian, 20MW.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: fostertom"At 10MW, the Blackburn Meadows battery is one of the biggest in Britain so far, but ... Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, is building a 49MW facility on the site of a former power station in Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, while EDF Energy is working on one of the same size at its West Burton gas power station in Nottinghamshire."

    "The ability of batteries to respond to demand in less than a second makes them ideal for the task, with earlier sources of backup power much slower at just under 10 seconds."

    No mention of the storage capacity, just the power delivery.
    Going to the EON website it seem to be 5MWh.

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